World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Warrior Community Let Down.

Ruke

< BLT >

Maelstrom

40. Re: Warrior Community Let Down. 06/22/2009 02:42:14 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

the same reason unglyphed horn is 2 min.

Horn generates resources... it doesn't cost resources. I suppose you could argue it costs a GCD, but no DK rotation occupies every GCD for minutes on end.

Really, you should be using horn every opportunity you can. If you don't, you're not playing as good as you could be.

Horn should never even go for 1m without being refreshed. This is not comparable at all to warrior shouts.

[ Post edited by Ruke ]

Qhorin

< Danger Cart >

Eldre'Thalas

41. Re: Warrior Community Let Down. 06/22/2009 03:13:48 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Horn generates resources... it doesn't cost resources. I suppose you could argue it costs a GCD, but no DK rotation occupies every GCD for minutes on end.

Really, you should be using horn every opportunity you can. If you don't, you're not playing as good as you could be.

Horn should never even go for 1m without being refreshed. This is not comparable at all to warrior shouts.

Not entirely true with a blood rotation where you are often trying to squeeze in 4-6 Heart Strikes in a Half you have very few global cooldowns in which to even burn your excess of Runic Power. Often times if you chose to spend a global on horn you end up going well over the Runic Power max at some point in your rotation. This is especially true if specced into Scent of Blood.

[ Post edited by Qhorin ]

Vlorg

< Rocket Science >

Arthas

42. Re: Warrior Community Let Down. 06/22/2009 04:49:00 PM PDT

cause it's friggin not in any kind of tanking / dps rotation, and, with thunder clap, demo shout, and sunder ( if DPS'ing), I have too much stuff to keep up who aren't part of dps / tps rotations.

this is pure QQ from me.

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

44. Re: Warrior Community Let Down. 06/22/2009 05:27:26 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Warriors do not need all that much, honestly. I made a thread about that a few days ago which isn't inflammatory and so fell off the radar in an afternoon.

We always read Satrina posts, even when others don’t. :)

Q u o t e:
It's nice when you see a well thought out post like this and not one response from Blizzard. It gives me a nice warm feeling that making simple fixes to the warrior prot tree is the last thing on their mind.

Please don’t fish for blue responses. We can’t create the expectation that every decent post gets a blue response.

Q u o t e:
if you've been playing a warrior for long, and you don't know how to deal with disappointment by now, i don't know what to tell you.

Being the best tank for 70 levels can be disappointing. :(

Q u o t e:
Warriors have consistently been the worst tank since WoTLK dropped (Or fighting with paladins for that honor). In 3.2 they don't really move "up", rather DKs simply take the paladins old role of "worst competitor".

I’m not sure that statement is accurate, but here is the problem. There are A LOT of warrior tanks. They are tanking every fight in Ulduar. If warriors were too low and if we buffed them, I don’t see how that would increase the numbers on the other tanks. I don’t think the conclusion to be drawn is that warriors are overpowered. I think the conclusion to be drawn is that warriors were the traditional tank and lot of established guilds have established MTs who see no reason to reroll the FotM. It’s not actually a goal to have 25% of each tank in Ulduar, but is also seems strange to buff the most popular tank. Won’t that just make them more popular? Again, don’t misinterpret that as GC sez suck it up warriors. It is something we have to keep in mind, however.

Block is a systemic problem. We're not sure we can make it a very compelling mitigation stat in a world where tank avoidance is so high and bosses hit so hard. However I will say that the Coliseum fights should focus less on the blow-your-cooldowns-or-die style of encounter.

Rage starvation is a problem. Frankly, we're not sure a model where you have to get hit in order to tank is that compelling anymore. Something that has come up a lot is changing rage (even for Prot) to damage done. This is a slight nerf to the PvP mechanic of being punished when you hit the warrior, but there are other ways to solve that as well. Again, we're talking a big change here. I'm not sure we're comfortable jacking with such a core mechanic before 3.2.

We'll try to get a tanking Patchwerk on the PTR again. That provided us with a lot of information before about mitigation, cooldowns and overall time to live.

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Milkgiver

< Popular Creeps >

Bonechewer

45. Re: Warrior Community Let Down. 06/22/2009 05:30:27 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Being the best tank for 70 levels can be disappointing. :(

I heard that the devs balance classes based off of who was the most OP in the past......true story.

I post on my main becasue I have no ego to lose.

Are you sure you really want to argue with that?

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

46. Re: Warrior Community Let Down. 06/22/2009 05:36:30 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
I heard that the devs balance classes based off of who was the most OP in the past......true story.

I heard players like to ask for buffs based on suffering through years of neglect at the hands of the devs. :)

We do take past history into account. But we won't say allow someone to be overpowered just so they too can have their day in the sun. Being too weak in the past sucks, but past imbalance is no reason to promote future imbalance.

My original comment was more in jest towards the person who felt warriors should be used to disappointment even though they have been a dominant PvP, PvE and tanking spec for 4 or more years. That doesn't mean it's the warriors' turn to be bad, but the complaint rang a little hollow.

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Kataklysim

Blackhand

47. Re: Warrior Community Let Down. 06/22/2009 05:42:49 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

I heard players like to ask for buffs based on suffering through years of neglect at the hands of the devs. :)

We do take past history into account. But we won't say allow someone to be overpowered just so they too can have their day in the sun. Being too weak in the past sucks, but past imbalance is no reason to promote future imbalance.

My original comment was more in jest towards the person who felt warriors should be used to disappointment even though they have been a dominant PvP, PvE and tanking spec for 4 or more years. That doesn't mean it's the warriors' turn to be bad, but the complaint rang a little hollow.

Warriors are the most challenging class to tank effectively with. When I tank on my warrior I use shield slam, devastate,revenge,thunderclap, shockwave, heroic strike/cleave, situationally demo shout, shield bash, spell reflect. That is far more complicated than any other tanking class; and I'm not complaining about this. The point is if a class takes significantly more skill to play well, that class should be at least slightly better than one who depends on 3-4 spells.

Kurot

< Goon Squad >

Mal'Ganis

49. Re: Warrior Community Let Down. 06/22/2009 05:44:23 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

We do take past history into account.

Why does past history influence how a game should be balanced now?

Peleg

< After Dark >

The Scryers

52. Re: Warrior Community Let Down. 06/22/2009 05:51:12 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

I’m not sure that statement is accurate, but here is the problem. There are A LOT of warrior tanks. They are tanking every fight in Ulduar. If warriors were too low and if we buffed them, I don’t see how that would increase the numbers on the other tanks. I don’t think the conclusion to be drawn is that warriors are overpowered. I think the conclusion to be drawn is that warriors were the traditional tank and lot of established guilds have established MTs who see no reason to reroll the FotM. It’s not actually a goal to have 25% of each tank in Ulduar, but is also seems strange to buff the most popular tank. Won’t that just make them more popular? Again, don’t misinterpret that as GC sez suck it up warriors. It is something we have to keep in mind, however.

I had a feeling this was part of the issue. You are afraid to make warriors the best tank because there are already a ton of them, so you have to try to struggle to keep them exactly equal, but err on the side of caution. Likewise, because deathknights were a brand new class, many of us other tanks got the impression that you were purposely making them overpowered just to get people to admit them as raid tanks, and then you'd nerf them later. Which seems to be happening as scheduled. I'm not criticizing this philosophy. But surely you can see this may be frustrating to the members of these classes who are penalized (or rewarded) simply because 1 million other people chose to play that same class.

To be honest, I thought adding a 4th tank was a mistake, and I still think it is. Tanking is not like healing or DPS. Close isn't good enough. If any tank has a 10% advantage, guilds are going to migrate to using that tank exclusively over time, because small differences in tank survivability can determine whether a guild wastes 3 hours wiping on a boss or whether they are victorious. It seems like your only hope of balancing tank numbers is to constantly be nerfing/buffing tanks so that it's a different tank with an advantage each patch and thus guilds cannot re-recruit/re-gear fast enough to keep up with the flavor of the month.

Anyway, best of luck with your tank balancing.

Katjia

< Bizarro >

Khaz'goroth

53. Re: Warrior Community Let Down. 06/22/2009 05:51:13 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
We'll try to get a tanking Patchwerk on the PTR again. That provided us with a lot of information before about mitigation, cooldowns and overall time to live.

any chance you could build a 'tanking Patchwerk' that could give some kind of control over the damage patterns it pumps out?

Anything from a straight out "type in the parameters for this fight" activation NPC, to some kind of system where he hits harder or faster depending on where you tank him.

ie, park the boss in the middle of a large room - give everyone an 80% movememnt debuff and set him up to hit harder the closer he gets to the east wall, and faster the closer he gets to the north wall... give him special abilites that he gains whenever certain objects in the room are 'broken' (shoot the pink Armani vase to give him a Plasma Blast effect for 3 minutes) and then report on the north/east co-ordinates each time he kills a tank.

not sure what people would do with something like that, but I'm sure the clever boffins to spent so much time with the last testing Patch would think of something interesting :)

angle should honostly mangle you its not called "tickle me attack" ...its not called "happy hugs from a cuddly forest animal"
-Ashena

Eetabeetay

< Judgment >

Anetheron

55. Re: Warrior Community Let Down. 06/22/2009 05:55:11 PM PDT

Honestly I don't see Warriors being that far away from other tanking classes. The only complaints I really have are mostly about our versatility in fights which require CD rotating. We need to get an AMS and not through a set bonus. Our T8 set bonus then needs to be changed to something thats not so situational - on a lot of fights its pretty much useless which makes it not a "Bonus" at all. We need to be able to get our short timer CDs from talents only. As I understood it, glyphs were supposed to be extra perks, not necessities. And then when all that is fixed, we're not that far behind DKs as far as how much dmg reduction we have. Some changes to our AoE threat would be nice - make it not so bursty. We are at a disadvantage when aoe groups are spawning fast, we have one ability every 6 seconds and another every 20, we need to be able to pick up new aoe packs in between those CDs. Maybe nerf the damage of both a little and add an extra ability or make Tclap like a consecrate. If block got fixed, that would most likely top off the list of concerns and we would have a well rounded tanking class that is in line with the others.

Cakewalk

< Heretic >

Executus

57. Re: Warrior Community Let Down. 06/22/2009 05:55:28 PM PDT

It's not like we are asking for huge avoidance buffs or demanding to be the best tanks in the game sinse we were the concept main tanks at game design.

Personally I'd be happy if our dps (and threat) was made comparable to other tanks. Sure warriors can dish out good TPS in optimal situations, but the problem of rage starvation has never been addressed in the years that it has been an issue. Beta had a simple fix of 5 rage on dodge / miss / parry, but it was removed for some reason. The only other rage generating tank does considerably more damage and has mechanics built in to generate rage above and beyond the simple hit or be hit model. If our damage was increased and any mechanic was implemented to help generate rage when we aren't being hit, then most warriors would be happy I would think.

Milkgiver

< Popular Creeps >

Bonechewer

58. Re: Warrior Community Let Down. 06/22/2009 05:56:07 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

I heard players like to ask for buffs based on suffering through years of neglect at the hands of the devs. :)

Actually, I wouldn't mind a nerf even. This forum has become so boring because there is so little for a warrior to talk about. The only warr threads are either 'omfg we suck' or 'how about i post on an ability that was covered in 37 other threads!'. All the 'constructive' threads are other classes talking about there nerfs and buffs, all ours are 'why' we should be nerfed or buffed. At least with a nerf we have something to talk about, but there hasn't been any major warrior changes since wrath.

I post on my main becasue I have no ego to lose.

Are you sure you really want to argue with that?

Josin

< Maniacal >

Steamwheedle Cartel

59. Re: Warrior Community Let Down. 06/22/2009 05:56:15 PM PDT

Glad to see some GC acknowledgement. Its good to be heard.

Prot Warriors have to gear for Hit, Expertise, Stam, Str, Dodge, Parry, Block, and Def. The other 3 classes can easily not concern themselves with 2-3 of the items from that list. -Thorke

Forum > CLASS ROLES > TANKING