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Q u o t e:
FoL spam is fine, even with 25K hits, if you have 2 Paladins in the raid and they keep Light's Grace up. That HPS obviously isn't enough for some fights (or portions of some fights, at least) but you shouldn't have a problem on XT doing that.

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I was more so referring to the top-end HPS the class is capable off.

Healing tanks through Steelbreaker, Thorim or even Mimiron's P1 Plasma Blast (which I've seen Paladins heal through without cooldowns) can be done with HL but FoL ends up being too weak for the job.

I honestly don't think XT (unless it's the hard mode, and even then, it's a DPS thing more than healing challenge), Ignis, Razor, Kologarn and Auriaya factor into any healing argument at this stage. The encounters are the "farm" content that a lot of casual guilds can manage without any problems.

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Q u o t e:
I have a feeling their nerfs weren't based on made up numbers, and that he just made some up to get his point across. Or do you think that that may be giving him too much credit?

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When 99% of the paladin community is saying the same thing, you cannot be asking yourself anymore who is right or wrong. And we are talking about paladins from top guilds on their servers like Samgee (gratz on legendary).

Because I know how long he has been playing and what type of content he is doing, I tend to believe him and not a lvl 44 priest.

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Q u o t e:
I have a feeling their nerfs weren't based on made up numbers, and that he just made some up to get his point across. Or do you think that that may be giving him too much credit?

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Do you assume that unicorns exist, despite the lack of evidence? I hope not.

It doesn't matter if it was GC, or any other blue or even you or me. It would be giving anyone too much credit in this situation to assume that they have real numbers, when all they've offered are ones that they described as made up. Sure, it's possible that there are real numbers, but we haven't been shown any.

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Q u o t e:
The made-up numbers are because the actual numbers are based on a lot of variables, but are in the same ballpark.

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10:07m XT-Hard Parse:

Seal of Wisdom 89,358 Mana
Illumination 49,802 Mana
Replenishment 33,137 Mana
Judgement of Wisdom 8,785 Mana
Soul of the Dead 7,200 Mana
Mana Restore 4,800 Mana
Revitalize 4,010 Mana

I don't feel safe using DP on XT-Hard (or Steelbreaker last, mind you), so melee, HL, melee, HL, etc. is the way to go.

Holy Light was 80% of my heals (2,286,432 / 74% OH / 37% Crit on the fight)
Beacon was 6% (171,484 / 84% OH)
Glyph of Holy Light was 5% (138,941 / 23% OH)
Flash of Light was 4% (111,758 / 93% OH / 50% Crit for the fight)
Holy Shock was 3% (86,146 / 28% OH / 55% Crit on the fight)

Oh yes, Holy Mending did a whopping 6,025 healing and Imp Leader of the Pack healed me for roughly half of my Holy Shock output (42,163) because I was meleeing.

Please note: the instant-cast, decently spot-healing spell in our arsenal? 28% overheal. The small, flash heal? 93% OH. Even if that heal was possibly instant... (IoL procced 10 times)

But that parse right there? That's me at unlimited mana; and not because of Illumination... because of Seal of Wisdom. Same as in a Steelbreaker-last parse until the P3 burn.

Meanwhile... Ye Olde Tank:

0:10.406 -- Attack Dodged.
0:12.813 -- Attack Hits for 24,218.

Please note: that's BEFORE severing the Heart. 2.4s attack speed and up to 10K a second...

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Q u o t e:


Elaborate on this.

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There will be new sets, which they assume you will use, rather than the current sets with the "OP" bonuses.

Why don't you do a regen-numbers breakdown like you did for the priest and paladin for a shaman? You just might surprise yourself.

Although, to be fair, the change to water shield (orbs no longer being consumed) will help with GCDs a bit.

However, I still find myself out of mana A LOT more than any of our other healers. And, as a shaman, my overheals are generally at about 25-30%, which is pretty darn good.

First.

(always wanted to say that, even though it's dumb XD)

GC, earlier you mentioned that one of the changes (I think the one involving multiple beacons on one target) was absolutely in. Do you have any more information on what other changes are definitely in? If you'd like us to cut down on "quibbling," then it would be useful to know what subjects aren't worth talking about because they're already set in stone.

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Q u o t e:
We are making it more efficient to do something else, but we aren’t preventing the current gameplay.

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I'm not trying to be overly contrary but this is just completely false. You said later in your post that paladins are spamming Holy Light on the tank nonstop currently, which is more or less true or at least as in the ballpark as your numbers were. Nerfing HL spam regeneration by 30-40% obviously does prevent current gameplay. I'm not saying that's not your goal with it, just pointing out that that sentence is incorrect.

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Q u o t e:

Typically you are healing the tank who is usually not clustered with a lot of melee. If you HL a rogue, then you are probably getting more out of it. With this change you can heal say rogues a lot and still get all of that healing on the tank.

Before: Unless the rogue is pretty injured, the tank gets nothing. Better off just targeting the tank.
Now: Go ahead and heal the rogue, because the tank will still get the beacon effect every time.

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Umm, sorry to burst your bubble but even as an alt the "Now" scenario was already at work. On a fight with consistent or predictable amounts of raid damage like Ignis, XT, Saphiron, Hodir, Auriya and Mimiron Beacon is already effectively doubling heals. Glyph of Holy Light does good effective healing in many of those cases as well. On Live and with the PTR change, very little changes. The Only option added is to blatantly Overheal a raid member with a small health deficit using HL, because the beacon is 9k+ in deficit.

The Beacon change isn't nearly as significant as the illumination change, especially not with replenishment and mana pool nerfs on top.

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Q u o t e:


This is a pretty good summary, and also why I find the response that we are dumbing down paladin healing to be a little surprising. Note that you can still just heal the tank if you are more comfortable with that (or if the fight isn’t particularly dangerous or if you are so worried about the tank dying that you don’t want to be distracted). We are making it more efficient to do something else, but we aren’t preventing the current gameplay.

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How is it not dumbing down Paladin healing, when no matter how bad you are at the raid healing part of using Beacon, you will still heal the tank? There's no positive or negative incentive for actually being good at raid healing with the proposed Beacon.

Does BoW get the mp5 buff as well?

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Q u o t e:

This isn't quite accurate. We buffed MP5 because it just did not provide enough mana per stat point. You are often going to end up with MP5 on your gear almost no matter what you do because you aren't often choosing directly between Int, spellpower, crit or MP5.

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Speaking for myself i first look at spell power then haste/crit rating then int in determining upgrades, for me spell power is the number 1 stat i look for, so for me this statement is totally untrue

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Q u o t e:
The nerf to Illumination was almost entirely because of the buff to Beacon of Light. Beacon can now provide massively more healing in some situations. If paladins still had the mana return they do currently, they would be the best healer in the game by a pretty wide margin. It is difficult to argue that point. Now you can argue that you prefer the current model (HL on the tank and nearly unlimited mana) better. But it's hard to argue the new Beacon would be balanced without other changes.

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You are basing this off a false premise i.e. Paladins do not run out of mana, we do run out of mana since the introduction to Ulduar 25, i personally run oom 2 minutes into every fight except Flame leviathan. and from reading others post a lot of paladins run oom in ulduar 25. Granted Naxx i have very very little mana issues, so by balancing for naxx just benches us for harder than naxx content, its a pity you cannot see this, I use beacon sacred shield every pull along with every other tool i have so its not just mashing holy light i do alot more than just that. Also keep in mind that beacon lasts 60 secs 90 sec if glyphed and costs almost 1600 mana per cast.

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Q u o t e:
paladins are generally GCD limited much more than they are mana limited. I'm not sure anyone is that mana limited in current content (though slightly more so on the hard modes), but whatever it is, paladins feel it the least.

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I don't know how to respond to this because in my experience me and the other holy pally in the raid (we run 2 if a priest or shaman is sick) go oom in about 2 minutes, we personally do not like using divine plea due to the 50% heal reduction stacked on it and when your healing the tank thats taking 20k to 33k plus hits divine plea is a death warrent, 2 minutes after that the disc priest goes oom, but the druids and holy priest never go OOM from what i have seen in every single raid. And you made it sound like we have sooo much more mana than the other class healers in my guild i am just shy of over 5k mana than the other healing classes in my guild.

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Q u o t e:
Now we change Beacon so that the overhealing counts. Paladin healing is going to go up, probably by a lot. We can argue how much it's going to go up or how of that will be effective healing. But it will go up a lot, especially considering the glyph of HL will get more use. Considering how much higher paladin regen is than other healers, it has a long way to fall before it would even be at parity.

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Our over healing will go up a lot more period i already use beacon every pull and i refresh it every 90 sec, glyph of holy light will get less use because with the nerfs to our mana pool illumination we won't be able to cast holy light as much we will be forced to try to use a much inferior spell that is incapabvle of doing the job because it heals for less than a rejeuv does, and again i would point out to the fact that paldins do run out of mana, or are we all liars because we don't like the patch notes?

Hows all this affect me, well instead of going oom in 2 minutes i will now go oom in 45 sec due to the divine itellect nerf and illumination nerf. I will be forced to use flash of light more which is an ineffective heal period, does not get the job done either in raid healing or tank healing, the hot with ss buff is useless the buff will not remain on the target long enough for the hot to get put on due to the damage in Ulduar even if holy shock crited after waiting for the gcd the buff will be gone for an instant flash of light, heck divine mending and forethought talisman doesn't heal for squat now what maakes you think the hot off a flash will heal for anything its the same thing as the 2 previous mentioned effects. I will not be using beacon at all at 1600 mana a cast every 90 secs its just too expensive a spell. My predicition when this goes live (we all know it will go live except beacon of course) . after the first week my raid spot will be filled by a druid priest or shaman because your not changing the fight mechaniocs you not toning down the damage all your doing is killing our raid spots, this has happened to us before and will happen again. but this time i will not want to wait 2 to 3 months of sitting in Dalaran until paladin is fixed. The problems with our class r is that Ulduaar requires the healer to be mobile and we are not by any means mobile. I would suggest reading the post The paladin dilemma it spells out nicely what we need.

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Q u o t e:

When 99% of the paladin community says something, we will listen. When a few dozen forum posters who might not have a problem with paladins being the best healer in the game have an axe to grind then you have to understand if we take it with a grain of salt.

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While 99% is clearly an exaggeration, I think characterizing the people who strongly dislike the changes as a "few dozen forum posters" is much farther off the mark.

There's a question I'd really like to see you answer that I've seen asked repeatedly a number of different ways: with the changes coming in 3.2, how do you envision a paladin healing a tank in a fight with severe tank damage? Let's just leave beacon to the side for the moment (which admittedly has quite a bit of value, but what I'm trying to understand is how exactly you expect paladin efficacy at keeping a tank alive to differ in 3.2 compared to where we are now in 3.1)

You said earlier that the FOL hot will reset if you spam it, which suggests that the optimal tank healing will be something like 1 fol, then holy light for 13 seconds. (Though, if you're looking at just pure HPS and not EHPS or flexibility, I think you're still better off casting a holy light even if FOL just hit twice as hard up front, so the FOL+HoT is some flexibility at the expense of a loss in absolute HPS.)

So the intent is to have SS + FOL be our shield+renew except the shield doesnt prevent the next hit that might kill a person like a sield does and right now SS gets tossed on the MT. So how does this help us?

We cant just beacon the MT and raid heal with holy light because of the regen nerf, FOL isnt enough to keep the tank alive, so what do you see us doing with this new FOL/SS other than casting FOL on the tank once every 12 seconds for a HOT. If the situation permits?

This beacon change is nice, it means I dont have to worry about dying during frozen blows while I spam holy light heals on the main tank. But outside of situations like that I dont see changing my healing strategy any at all... I will still be beconing an offtank as an MT healer and the MT as an offtank healer.

You see to want us to heal reactively but thanks to the way boss encounters are designed (with massive burst and consistent aoe damage to the raid its not possible to reactively heal a main tank... so while you say we will have to be more cautious in our use of holy light all I hear is that tanks will due more often unless they are blowing cooldowns more consistently.