World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> A misconception that must be cleared:

Zebrimuri

< The War Council >

Silver Hand

80. Re: A misconception that must be cleared: 06/21/2009 04:53:21 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

[22:39:23.428] Steelbreaker hits xxxxxxxxxx 24338
[22:39:25.153] Steelbreaker hits xxxxxxxxx 21069 (O: 5816)

One of those is either a Fusion Punch direct hit or the remaining DoT that someone was too slow at cleaning up. Steelbreaker doesn't swing on a 1.5 sec timer, he has something like 2.2-2.4 between swings, changing with my latency on the log of our last IC25 kill.

[20:31:17:150] Steelbreaker hits XXXX for 21759
.
.
.
[20:31:19:553] Steelbreaker hits XXXX. Miss.

[ Post edited by Zebrimuri ]

Resto Shamans are like 1960 Ford Thunderbirds - was awesome back then, now it barely runs.

Serisen

< Greff Squad >

Drak'Tharon

81. Re: A misconception that must be cleared: 06/21/2009 04:57:24 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Uh, no. A properly geared/specced FoL isn't as bad as some are making it out to be, but it doesn't hit non-crit for anywhere remotely close to 10-12k. Nowhere close.

This is a conversation about a theoretical sacred shield or Beacon buff that makes FoL do 200% normal healing. Try to keep up if you're going to comment, Odes.

[ Post edited by Serisen ]

when life gives you lemons, just say '**%@ the lemons,' and bail.

Serisen

< Greff Squad >

Drak'Tharon

82. Re: A misconception that must be cleared: 06/21/2009 04:59:23 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

So I need to spec prot to get a decent FoL? Don't you find that... weird? There won't be any more HOLY paladins around. The spec is still dead even if some paladins will still heal... That translates "BROKEN" to me.

41/20/0. Not even that if you have a Resto Druid or a Prot Paladin in range for the 6% healing buff. You need divinity, though.

when life gives you lemons, just say '**%@ the lemons,' and bail.

Odes

< Agitprop Theatre >

Earthen Ring

83. Re: A misconception that must be cleared: 06/21/2009 05:01:29 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

This is a conversation about a theoretical sacred shield or Beacon buff that makes FoL do 200% normal healing. Try to keep up if you're going to comment, Odes.

Sorry, I should have read back further. Of course that sort of a buff would work, but the PvP implications would be bad. It would also be overpowered as @%@# for Prot and Ret (assuming it was a baseline buff, and not something deep in Holy). It would also make HL pretty much pointless, and Blizzard is trying to get Paladins to use both spells, not just one again.

Serisen

< Greff Squad >

Drak'Tharon

84. Re: A misconception that must be cleared: 06/21/2009 05:03:28 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Sorry, I should have read back further. Of course that sort of a buff would work, but the PvP implications would be bad. It would also be overpowered as @%@# for Prot and Ret (assuming it was a baseline buff, and not something deep in Holy). It would also make HL pretty much pointless, and Blizzard is trying to get Paladins to use both spells, not just one again.

I agree, but I do think a talent or glyph like Shamans have with Lesser Healing Wave is called for. 20% on a Sacred Shield target is a good addition.

when life gives you lemons, just say '**%@ the lemons,' and bail.

Eloderung

< Saga >

Haomarush

85. Re: A misconception that must be cleared: 06/21/2009 05:06:29 PM PDT

I don't see why paladins are the only class with an "efficient" (although it's not even that efficient now) fast heal that heals for nearly nothing, but have a "slow" heal that's incredibly inefficient that also has 3-4x the hps of the fast heal.

It's completely backwards from every other class, and it really should be fixed. They might be able to properly balance the class between HL and FoL usage this was fixed.

My 3.2 Paladin healing UI: http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h314/kaikulu/FoLui.jpg
http://www.saga-guild.org
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Haomarush&n=Eloderina (former main)

Odes

< Agitprop Theatre >

Earthen Ring

86. Re: A misconception that must be cleared: 06/21/2009 05:07:18 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

I agree, but I do think a talent or glyph like Shamans have with Lesser Healing Wave is called for. 20% on a Sacred Shield target is a good addition.

I think that's sort of the role they want the FoL HoT to play. It won't though if it's not stacking or otherwise better than it looks on paper. Right now, from what I've read and what I assume, it sounds like it'll maybe do as much healing as an Eartliving procc, or maybe Renew. Which is just not good enough.

Odes

< Agitprop Theatre >

Earthen Ring

87. Re: A misconception that must be cleared: 06/21/2009 05:09:26 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
I don't see why paladins are the only class with an "efficient" (although it's not even that efficient now) fast heal that heals for nearly nothing, but have a "slow" heal that's incredibly inefficient that also has 3-4x the hps of the fast heal.

It's completely backwards from every other class, and it really should be fixed. They might be able to properly balance the class between HL and FoL usage this was fixed.

Leftover crap from pre-BC. Things also got strange(r) when they removed Blessing of Light.

Serisen

< Greff Squad >

Drak'Tharon

88. Re: A misconception that must be cleared: 06/21/2009 05:09:50 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
I don't see why paladins are the only class with an "efficient" (although it's not even that efficient now) fast heal that heals for nearly nothing, but have a "slow" heal that's incredibly inefficient that also has 3-4x the hps of the fast heal.

It's completely backwards from every other class, and it really should be fixed. They might be able to properly balance the class between HL and FoL usage this was fixed.

I agree with this 100%. A HPS and mana cost increase of Flash of Light combined with a way to proc Light's Grace without casting a very slow Holy Light every 15 seconds would be great.

when life gives you lemons, just say '**%@ the lemons,' and bail.

Zebrimuri

< The War Council >

Silver Hand

89. Re: A misconception that must be cleared: 06/21/2009 05:11:35 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Leftover crap from pre-BC.

I bet if we asked them now, they wouldn't be able to tell us why FoL was left as such a weak heal.

It's another pointless legacy thing like the low base health that Shamans had and is getting a fix in 3.2.

Resto Shamans are like 1960 Ford Thunderbirds - was awesome back then, now it barely runs.

Flurbiprofen

< Full Circle >

Destromath

90. Re: A misconception that must be cleared: 06/21/2009 05:16:29 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
[22:39:23.428] Steelbreaker hits xxxxxxxxxx 24338
[22:39:25.153] Steelbreaker hits xxxxxxxxx 21069 (O: 5816)

The person assigned to cleanse the tank botched it. The first time I saw a log like that was after our warrior died after he blew up the pally who was usually tanking it on our initial hard mode attempts. The new rule is the ret is only allowed to press his cleanse macro while fusion punch is being cast.

You're not supposed to heal through that kind of damage. Asking to be able to heal through that is like asking to be able to heal the raid if everybody just stacks up in one spot for Thad.

Sonohako

< JAGD >

Burning Legion

91. Re: A misconception that must be cleared: 06/21/2009 06:19:09 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
I dont really like the shield idea because then we can simply put shield on raid member x, and heal both him and the tank for 200% of FoL

I intended for the FoL increase to only apply when the target had both Sacred Shield and Beacon of Light. I realize I could have phrased this more clearly.

Q u o t e:
The person assigned to cleanse the tank botched it. The first time I saw a log like that was after our warrior died after he blew up the pally who was usually tanking it on our initial hard mode attempts. The new rule is the ret is only allowed to press his cleanse macro while fusion punch is being cast.

You're not supposed to heal through that kind of damage. Asking to be able to heal through that is like asking to be able to heal the raid if everybody just stacks up in one spot for Thad.

Such quick, strong hits occur on Thorim hard without any DoT confusion. Towards the end of the fight a melee hit quickly followed by Unbalancing Strike can two-shot the tank in a small window.

Serisen

< Greff Squad >

Drak'Tharon

92. Re: A misconception that must be cleared: 06/21/2009 06:25:14 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

I intended for the FoL increase to only apply when the target had both Sacred Shield and Beacon of Light. I realize I could have phrased this more clearly.

Such quick, strong hits occur on Thorim hard without any DoT confusion. Towards the end of the fight a melee hit quickly followed by Unbalancing Strike can two-shot the tank in a small window.

Thorim can unbalancing strike between 2 normal melee hits (3 hits in 2 seconds). I have tanks start blowing cooldowns right before unbalancing strike comes off cooldown at a certain point in the fight.

when life gives you lemons, just say '**%@ the lemons,' and bail.

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

93. Re: A misconception that must be cleared: 06/21/2009 06:40:43 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Illumination nerf exists in 3.2 to force Paladins into Mp5 plate gear.

You know, the kind they've been ignoring for months now.

The regen nerf won't feel too bad if you guys actually start wearing the Mp5. It's there for a reason. You may not like it but it's either complying with Blizz and wearing it, or not wearing it and going oom in less than a minute.

This isn't quite accurate. We buffed MP5 because it just did not provide enough mana per stat point. You are often going to end up with MP5 on your gear almost no matter what you do because you aren't often choosing directly between Int, spellpower, crit or MP5.

The nerf to Illumination was almost entirely because of the buff to Beacon of Light. Beacon can now provide massively more healing in some situations. If paladins still had the mana return they do currently, they would be the best healer in the game by a pretty wide margin. It is difficult to argue that point. Now you can argue that you prefer the current model (HL on the tank and nearly unlimited mana) better. But it's hard to argue the new Beacon would be balanced without other changes.

I'm going to throw out some made-up numbers. These are not from actual stats, but are hopefully typical of say a 25-player, 10-min hard fight (something like XT). Feel free to disagree but they shouldn't be off by orders of magnitude.

A Holy paladin's mana regen might look like this:

Illumination 70,000
Divine Plea 50,000
Replenishment 36,000
Other sources of mana 30,000
Mana from gear 10,000
Overhealing 60%

A Holy priest's mana regen might look like this:

Replenishment 30,000 (remember, the paladin has more mana)
Other sources of mana 40,000
Mana from gear 25,000
Overhealng 30%

See the problem? We're not talking about mana regen that is slightly off from other classes.

This situation is acceptable (somewhat) in current content because you can only do so much with such high levels of regen since you generally have to target one heal at a time. We could pretty much just make paladin spells free and the outcome wouldn't change that much. That's an exaggeration, but you get the point: paladins are generally GCD limited much more than they are mana limited. I'm not sure anyone is that mana limited in current content (though slightly more so on the hard modes), but whatever it is, paladins feel it the least.

Now we change Beacon so that the overhealing counts. Paladin healing is going to go up, probably by a lot. We can argue how much it's going to go up or how of that will be effective healing. But it will go up a lot, especially considering the glyph of HL will get more use. Considering how much higher paladin regen is than other healers, it has a long way to fall before it would even be at parity.

Remember, we are also nerfing Penance, Prayer of Healing and Lifebloom. The latter won't be felt as much in PvE, but also realize we are talking about 3.2 changes here and the current druid set bonuses (which might be slightly overpowered) won't be around.

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Moriea

< AFK >

Suramar

94. Re: A misconception that must be cleared: 06/21/2009 06:48:04 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Now we change Beacon so that the overhealing counts. Paladin healing is going to go up, probably by a lot.

Your testing will show that our overhealing will go up by ALOT and that is about it...

Beacon is not the ultimate spell that you believe it to be.It takes a good amount of mana, attention, and GCD's to keep it up and to utilize it correctly. It is not the intelligent heal that Prayer of Mending, CoH, and Chain Heal are. This change will just dumb down our healing. Now we can AFK macro spam heal while we go make a cheese quesadilla. In current form, Beacon requires skill and adaptation, this change will remove all that.

Increase the duration to 3 minutes and we might consider it more worthy of this mana nerf.

[ Post edited by Moriea ]

Serisen

< Greff Squad >

Drak'Tharon

95. Re: A misconception that must be cleared: 06/21/2009 06:48:07 PM PDT

Nerf Divine Plea (base amount + % of max mana, lets say 1250 + 10% just for a number) and put Illumination at 50% of *actual* spell cost or something a little more balanced like that. We'd still have to use Divine Plea but we could time it better and not have to MS ourselves so much. Tying so much of our regen up in Plea is awful as is Illumination being quite a bit worse than Improved Water Shield after the patch.

edit: Also, Holy Priests have tools that produce less overhealing just by the nature of the spell. PoM and Circle of Healing, in particular. They can do more with less. That doesn't mean regen should be as far off between classes as they are but even trying to never overheal (which with our limited toolset is impossible and dangerous) we'll come out far ahead in numbers.

[ Post edited by Serisen ]

when life gives you lemons, just say '**%@ the lemons,' and bail.

Acrysa

< Order of the Red Daw… >

Thorium Brotherhood

96. Re: A misconception that must be cleared: 06/21/2009 06:48:40 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Remember, we are also nerfing Penance, Prayer of Healing and Lifebloom. The latter won't be felt as much in PvE, but also realize we are talking about 3.2 changes here and the current druid set bonuses (which might be slightly overpowered) won't be around.

><

Also, happy father's day, GC. I don't know if you have kids/infant crustaceans or not but if you do then yaaay.

[ Post edited by Acrysa ]

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Jahoota

< Black Dragon Elite >

Dalaran

97. Re: A misconception that must be cleared: 06/21/2009 06:49:18 PM PDT

Have any test numbers for Shaman mana changes in 3.2?

Sonohako

< JAGD >

Burning Legion

98. Re: A misconception that must be cleared: 06/21/2009 06:50:48 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Now we change Beacon so that the overhealing counts. Paladin healing is going to go up, probably by a lot. We can argue how much it's going to go up or how of that will be effective healing. But it will go up a lot, especially considering the glyph of HL will get more use. Considering how much higher paladin regen is than other healers, it has a long way to fall before it would even be at parity.

I expect that paladin healing will go down - a paladin assigned to the tank will use less Holy Light than he currently can, reducing healing. A paladin assigned to the raid (haha?) will use less Holy Light than he currently can, reducing healing. Glyph of Holy Light already has a near 100% attach rate, so I assume you mean that paladins will be using Holy Light to raid heal more than they currently are? Holy paladins currently use only HL to raid heal (this is slightly disingenuous I suppose - HS is a good raid healing tool between HLs on the tank), so any Glyph splash is already occurring at its maximum rate and can only decrease as HL use decreases.

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