World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Resilience change

Arhschala

< The Red Shirts >

Gorefiend

160. Re: Resilience change 06/22/2009 04:39:12 AM PDT

a buff to caster mana regen will be needed , you dont need to be a rocket scientist to understand that

and the fact that they buffed survibility overall will make drain ability even more powerfull

if nothing change .. 3.2 will be the worst patch for caster dps we have ever seen.... and season 6 was already horrible in that regards...

alleluia !

Mohawk

< Citadel of Chaos >

Llane

161. Re: Resilience change 06/22/2009 04:53:53 AM PDT

I'm a little confused by this change. And no offense to you, GC or any of the development crew, but as an Enhancement Shaman I already hit like I'm dual-wielding muffins, possibly even cupcakes.

Sure, this is great because I will receive less damage, and already have little choice other than to stack resilience, but is this not going to hurt some classes/spec's a lot due to their already low damage output?

As it stands right now, I can't even barely take a Resto druid below 2/3 health. Same goes for a pally or a priest. And this is with well timed interrupts and purging.

I commend you for trying to fix this issue, but I have a feeling some classes and specs are going to be hit really hard with this as far as damage output is concerned.

Then again, maybe I am just misunderstanding what these changes are exactly supposed to do.

Septem

< Sad Panda >

Smolderthorn

162. Re: Resilience change 06/22/2009 06:39:51 AM PDT

So I may not be completely understanding this change, so maybe someone can tell me if this makes any sense.

If resilience now lowers damage output, it seems like classes with strong defensive abilities will get a major buff. Basically, lets say player X has strong defensive abilities and currently is able to get away with only 500 resilience. Player Y does not have those type of abilities and stacks 1000 resilience to amp up survivability. With this change, won't player X see a relative buff?

Player X's damage isn't nerfed as hard as player Y's. Then you can add to this that, in a way, the fact that player Y has stacked resilience for survivablity has buffed player X's survivability.

It almost seems like this change will force the player Y's out there to drop resilience to be able to put some damage into the player X's(and stop buffing their survivability). Dropping the resilience then makes player Y's back to being as squishy as they are now which will bring us back to the 1-2 global cooldowns to end the match scenario.

I want to like this change, but thinking about it now makes me a little wary. Is there something I am not understanding or am I missing something about this change? Maybe the goal is that the fight will go longer so the player X's out there will be more apt to run out of defensive cooldowns and then their low resilience will make them a liability?

[ Post edited by Septem ]

Gutyu

The Venture Co

163. Re: Resilience change 06/22/2009 07:38:22 AM PDT

I think this is not the solution for the 'burst' problem, it will only make healers stronger.

Nerf classes with burst?
Nerf healing?

Teseu

< The Mafia >

Skullcrusher

164. Re: Resilience change 06/22/2009 08:05:32 AM PDT

Why dont reduce (a lot) the healing on the PvP sets? Instead of making them like debuff. Just let the heal with the choice: "if i want to be a rock, i cant heal as much" so he chooses how much res is enought and fill with another type of gear (just like everyone else).
The healing bonus in PvP gear is too much, and this would also avoid all these pvp-geared going for raids with almost same effect that a guy on PvE gear.

Brewkz

< Misguided Angels >

Mal'Ganis

165. Re: Resilience change 06/22/2009 09:11:45 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

I understand some paladins who don't like the change are trying to somehow trap us into admitting the Illumination nerf was for PvP.

Whether the nerf was for PVE rather than PVP is irrelevant. This change greatly changes PVP for a holy paladin. Currently deep holy's biggest issue is with mana when going up against priests and druids. With the resilience change increasing the length of games, it will become even worse. Why do you think a lot of people spec deep PROT to heal for pvp? If this change goes through HOLY paladins will continue to drop.

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

166. Re: Resilience change 06/22/2009 10:06:50 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
________________________________________
Q u o t e:

If it matters, we changed Illumination first to correspond with the Beacon of Light changes. Then when we agreed on changing resilience (and it was a very long discussion) we knew we would have to look at healing, or at least the healing by prominent Arena specs. Resto and Disc almost certainly needed attention. We thought paladins might be okay since their mana regen had already been nerfed and Beacon isn't a huge factor in PvP.
________________________________________

like does this paragraph even make sense? First you say that beacon was nerfed entirely because of pve and then you mention beacon isn't important in pvp. So crippling our regen in pvp is okay cause beacon isn't important in pvp ??????

I’ll try one more time. The following is painfully simplistic to the point of inaccurate, but I’m not sure how else to express the logic cleanly.

PvE problem: Paladin healing routine is boring.
Solution: Make Beacon usable on more targets.
New PvE problem: Paladins are too good because mana regen is too high.
Solution: Nerf Illumination (+1 for Beacon -1 for Illumination = 0).

PvP problem: Damage and healing are too high.
Solution: Change resilience and nerf healing. For paladins, the regen nerf already made above is probably sufficient for the latter.
New PvP problem: But the buff to Beacon counteracts this nerf in PvE, leaving paladins at a net higher level of power (+1 for Resilience -1 for Illumination + 1 for Beacon = 1 (when we want zero)).
Solution: None needed because Beacon isn’t a huge factor in PvP (the equation above is actually +1 for Resilience -1 for Illumination = 0).

Q u o t e:
Note however, that you can get the same effect without making resilience a debuff to the wearer. You can have resilience wearers apply an MS style debuff that scales with resilience of the attacker, and lasts until the target reaches 100% health. It should not stack with other resilience debuffs but instead overwrite weaker versions. And it should stack with existing MS debuffs. That way it is a positive benefit and would ENCOURAGE DPS classes to wear resilience gear.

P.S. If defensive mechanics that have drawbacks are being deemed unfair, feel free to take a look at redesigning amplify and dampen magic for mages, which uses he exact same mechanic!

Amplify and Dampen are not considered buffs like Arcane Intellect that you generally put on everyone 100% of the time with no trade-off. They are situational spells you use sometimes. Resilience is supposed to be a buff in PvP. You are supposed to want it. You are supposed to be happy because it lets you survive longer, not have mixed feelings because it auto Mortal Strikes you at the same time. That kind of solution might be elegant in pure design sense, but we worry it would feel really crappy in practice. Part of the problem with the current PvP situation is that resilience already feels optional for some classes.

Q u o t e:
a buff to caster mana regen will be needed , you dont need to be a rocket scientist to understand that

That assumes that caster mana is balanced around 30 second fights. It isn’t, and we aren’t talking about suddenly going to 30 minute fights. It could very well be a problem in practice, but we think it’s premature to assume that all dps casters are going to run out of mana now. There can be something between the two extremes of dying in 2 GCDs and having endless matches where the team to go OOM first loses. There can be something in between a sprint and a marathon.

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Miråndå

Sen'jin

167. Re: Resilience change 06/22/2009 10:06:51 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

What I don't like is the false logic here. Spriests/Warlock representation not that high? Let's just give them more damage!!

This has been the design philosophy from you guys as far back as I can remember and it's not a very good one. LOLMOREDAMAGE doesn't fix a class, it just makes it worse. Affliction warlocks have NO problem with damage. Their DOTs do so much damage right now, as do Spriest DOTs, especially seeing as though they can now crit.

The way you're reacting now is as if DOTs have been unfairly affected by resilience until now, which isn't true. Giving a particular spec LOLMOREDMG doesn't fix anything, it just makes it worse, aka 16k crit comboing destro locks and ~10k elemental shaman lava bursts. This is why the game is so full of burst at the moment.

The only place where DOT damage was low was against arcane mages with high magic resistance. And arcane needs every bit of survivability it can get. Increasing DOT damage is not going to make warlocks and spriests live longer against melee, which is their true problem.

Q u o t e:

WoW's overuse of the RNG is like having a bird constantly crap in your mouth.

--Gnometal

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

168. Re: Resilience change 06/22/2009 10:06:56 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
I'm a little confused by this change. And no offense to you, GC or any of the development crew, but as an Enhancement Shaman I already hit like I'm dual-wielding muffins, possibly even cupcakes.

Sure, this is great because I will receive less damage, and already have little choice other than to stack resilience, but is this not going to hurt some classes/spec's a lot due to their already low damage output?

I understand the concern. We know that Enhancement shaman dps is in a really good place in PvE. Your experience in PvP seems to be that you can’t kill healers. The problem is we are hearing (and observing) many situations where players are dying in only a few hits. We have nerfed some of the big hitting abilities of say DKs, Retadins and even Destro locks. But we think damage would still be high even with those changes. If a single Enhancement shaman can take out a single healer, then when the healer is focused by two dps at once, they will have no chance.

Q u o t e:
I want to like this change, but thinking about it now makes me a little wary. Is there something I am not understanding or am I missing something about this change? Maybe the goal is that the fight will go longer so the player X's out there will be more apt to run out of defensive cooldowns and then their low resilience will make them a liability?

I think you are dividing the bucket too cleanly into “classes that can survive” and “classes that can’t.” There has been a vigorous debate for some time within the community (and not just this forum) about damage and healing being too high in PvP. While some classes are worse than others, those are also the classes that received additional nerfs. Overall we need for characters to be a little more survivable when being beat on. They need a little more room to come up with a counter of some kind so that too many fights are not “use your ability within this 1 sec window or lose.”

Q u o t e:
Whether the nerf was for PVE rather than PVP is irrelevant. This change greatly changes PVP for a holy paladin.

Good. It needs to. As you can see from this and other threads, “immortal healers” has immediately replaced “burst damage” as a major PvP concern and the change isn’t even out yet.

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Miråndå

Sen'jin

169. Re: Resilience change 06/22/2009 10:18:53 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

PvP problem: Damage and healing are too high.
Solution: Change resilience and nerf healing. For paladins, the regen nerf already made above is probably sufficient for the latter.
New PvP problem: But the buff to Beacon counteracts this nerf in PvE, leaving paladins at a net higher level of power (+1 for Resilience -1 for Illumination + 1 for Beacon = 1 (when we want zero)).
Solution: None needed because Beacon isn’t a huge factor in PvP (the equation above is actually +1 for Resilience -1 for Illumination = 0).

I don't get this at all.

PvP problem: Damage and healing are too high.
True solution: Reduce damage and healing.

But this Blizzard cannot do, because it would require retuning all the raid bosses.

True PvP problem: Melee has bigger burst than casters, with greater health points and more ways to deflect or reflect damage.
True solution: Reduce melee burst, increase caster health and defensive abilities.

True PvP problem: Healers are virtually immune to DPS casters. Different healers have more or less problems with melee.
True solution: Not so simple.

The level of success a disc priest has against DPS casters compared with melee is vastly different. Interdependencies among classes are great and complex. At best a priest or resto shaman is complementary, while a well-geared resto druid or holy/prot paladin is nearly immortal.

True PvP problem: Stuns, silences, slows and range closers have proliferated across classes, and their interaction causes imbalances in large-scale PvP.
True solution: No way to go but from whence we came. Unravel the homogeneity.

Q u o t e:
If a single Enhancement shaman can take out a single healer, then when the healer is focused by two dps at once, they will have no chance.

I'd like to see the same level of concern directed toward DPS casters, for whom the idea of surviving being focused by two DPS at once is (and long has been) a flight of fantasy.

[ Post edited by Miråndå ]

Q u o t e:

WoW's overuse of the RNG is like having a bird constantly crap in your mouth.

--Gnometal

Arkerus

< Someguild >

Archimonde

170. Re: Resilience change 06/22/2009 10:20:58 AM PDT

Here come our healer overlords. A baseline (up to 12%) reduction in all damage simply allows for healing classes to have even MORE room for error. 1v1 versus a healer is already hair-pulling-frustrating. Now with a straight reduction in damage against any target with high resilience, healers have more room and time to heal themselves and their target.

Its not an even line. You can't just reduce damage and reduce SOME healing abilities. Reduction in damage disproportionately helps healers more than reduction in healing helps dps. Raid type healing in arenas is already an issue, combine that with a baseline damage reduction and you can see what is going to happen. This isn't rocket science and I don't understand why healers are treated with invincibility int his game. This is the only game, in a rather extensive game library where healers are given this kind of treatment.

I have CS bound to the gas pedal and Divine Storm bound to the brake. I steer around murdering everything in my path. I leave a swath of destruction the size of Azeroth.

Fives

< Lost Chapter >

Drak'thul

171. Re: Resilience change 06/22/2009 10:22:33 AM PDT

The statement "Beacon isn't a big factor in pvp" leads me to believe that it's being overlooked, and could very possibly become a big factor in pvp.

Does Beacon need Line of Sight? If not, I can predict a lot of Beacon teams where the Paladin sits behind a pillar and heals himself and a beaconed target.

Beacon isn't a factor in PVP in 3.1. 3.2 is changing a LOT of things. Beacon very well may be a factor in 3.2. I hope the Blues are aware of this, and prepared for it.

Halkor

< Illyria >

Windrunner

172. Re: Resilience change 06/22/2009 10:37:32 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
Amplify and Dampen are not considered buffs like Arcane Intellect that you generally put on everyone 100% of the time with no trade-off. They are situational spells you use sometimes. Resilience is supposed to be a buff in PvP. You are supposed to want it. You are supposed to be happy because it lets you survive longer, not have mixed feelings because it auto Mortal Strikes you at the same time. That kind of solution might be elegant in pure design sense, but we worry it would feel really crappy in practice. Part of the problem with the current PvP situation is that resilience already feels optional for some classes.

I think you misunderstood the proposal from Sroneous, which I think is a pretty great idea. As you mentioned in a thread last week, the Devs were considering adding an effect to resilience that causes the player to be healed for less. Obviously this would make resilience a lot less popular.

The player you quoted, however, came up with an idea that would reduce healing and make resilience a must-have stat for PvP. The attackers resilience rating places an MS debuff on the DEFENDER, rather than on himself. This debuff scales with resilience.

Example: I have 656 resilience. This will cause the following effects:

* Places an X second debuff that causes the target you strike to receive 8% less healing. Could possibly stack with MS?

I think this is a BRILLIANT move. It will solve several problems:

Halkor - Dwarf Death Knight <Illyria>
Halibaba - 70 Dranei Hunter <Illyria>
Halcor - 70 Human Rogue <Illyria>
Formerly Sisyphus - 60 Dwarf Hunter (The Guilded Flagon)

Miråndå

Sen'jin

173. Re: Resilience change 06/22/2009 10:44:06 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
a buff to caster mana regen will be needed , you dont need to be a rocket scientist to understand that

and the fact that they buffed survibility overall will make drain ability even more powerfull

if nothing change .. 3.2 will be the worst patch for caster dps we have ever seen.... and season 6 was already horrible in that regards...

alleluia !

Yeah, it's a real problem having such a vast discrepancy between PvE and PvP mana regen. PvE mana regen is arguably OP, but it revolves around the concerted effects of spirit, buffs and replenishment. Going this direction left DPS caster mana regen in a very bad place with absolutely no way out.

Q u o t e:

WoW's overuse of the RNG is like having a bird constantly crap in your mouth.

--Gnometal

Sroneous

< GIFT >

Dark Iron

174. Re: Resilience change 06/22/2009 10:53:54 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
Resilience is supposed to be a buff in PvP. You are supposed to want it. You are supposed to be happy because it lets you survive longer, not have mixed feelings because it auto Mortal Strikes you at the same time. That kind of solution might be elegant in pure design sense, but we worry it would feel really crappy in practice. Part of the problem with the current PvP situation is that resilience already feels optional for some classes.

I believe you misread what I wrote. I was not suggesting that the MS debuff would affect the WEARER of the resilience gear, but I was suggesting it would apply the debuff to the TARGET OF THE WEARER. It becomes a way to balance both healing and damage with resilience, and make sure that resilience is always a positive thing.

Example 1) Healer with resilience fights DPS without resilience. DPS is unable to defeat Healer due to damage debuff of healers gear.

Example 2) Healer with resilience fights DPS with resilience. Fight is balanced because Healers gear debuffs damage, while DPS gear debuffs healing.

This will ENCOURAGE DPS classes to wear resilience gear. It will allow Blizzard to tune the relative effects of healing and damage without major patches or changes to spells by tuning resiience coefficients. And it makes resilience a fair and balanced stat, one that no longer favors healers/high health classes over DPS classes.

Hopebringer

< HaIsTa ViTTu >

Gurubashi

175. Re: Resilience change 06/22/2009 10:55:44 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

Good. It needs to. As you can see from this and other threads, “immortal healers” has immediately replaced “burst damage” as a major PvP concern and the change isn’t even out yet.

The one thing that concerns me is that the Beacon change might not be the answer. In PvP I can already see a good amount of QQ happening when a paladin can now be 60 yards away heal himself and keep the focused target alive with ease. In PvP part of using your new LoS system is that the paladin has to stay close enough to heal the target but, as I said, LoS won't be much of an issue if a paladin can simply run away from the combat entirely while still being a part of it.

I'm wondering what you think will happen in a 3v3 or 5v5 Arena match where a paladin can easily set the focus on the target currently taking damage and heal them. Or in a perfect scenario the opposing team is clearly focusing a, let's say, shadow priest. The paladin can be at 60 yards while healing the shadow priest. I also see that you, or anyone else, will say well... what about the other players in your team? How will they be healed if you are 60 yards away. You can easily have the players be smart and move closer when they need a heal.

What do you think Ghostcrawler? I'm hoping that a PvE buff will go through to make my healing far more exciting then holy light spam but I can already see a conflict with other players saying that holy paladins will have it better.

Cahones

< Rotten Luck >

Dragonmaw

176. Re: Resilience change 06/22/2009 10:56:19 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

Good. It needs to. As you can see from this and other threads, “immortal healers” has immediately replaced “burst damage” as a major PvP concern and the change isn’t even out yet.

Paladins are not the powerhouse healers they were in s5, and arguably they were only that because of defensive cooldowns being the only way to survive the crazy damage output. Paladins only bring a few forms of defensive utility and their pure healing output and longevity, if you nerf their longevity this hurts them in pvp and is going to put them at a severe disadvantage against teams with other healing classes. Paladins don't have the offensive pressure when not healing, they don't have fears and mana burns, or hex's, earthshocks, and purges, or cyclone and root CC. They can cleanse, freedom, stun on a long cooldown and heal for alot for a long time. Paladin survivability means little when they have no longevity, and that's the whole reason you choose a paladin healer.

I just feel you guys underestimate the impact this has on holy paladin PVP.

Also I feel cutting illumination in half is hardly a fair trade off for the beacon change in pve.

Charsi

< Critical Mass >

Stormrage

177. Re: Resilience change 06/22/2009 11:06:13 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

Example: I have 656 resilience. This will cause the following effects:
* Reduce chance to be crit by 8%
* Reduce damage from all crits by 17.6%
* Reduce damage from DoTs by 8%
* Reduce mana drained by 17.6%
* Places an X second debuff that causes the target you strike to receive 8% less healing. Could possibly stack with MS?

Not a bad idea imo. x%, stacking up to 5 times, so the cap of 10% resilience leads to an MS effect after 5 hits. It shouldn't stack with MS.

That way MS and similar buffs would simply be a way to get the debuff up quickly. Don't think there'd be much of a point in wounding poison for rogues though.

But then I think about trees running around slapping things with their branches to apply 10% healing debuff per slap, and it just seems so ridiculous.

[ Post edited by Charsi ]

Mohawk

< Citadel of Chaos >

Llane

178. Re: Resilience change 06/22/2009 11:07:40 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

I understand the concern. We know that Enhancement shaman dps is in a really good place in PvE. Your experience in PvP seems to be that you can’t kill healers. The problem is we are hearing (and observing) many situations where players are dying in only a few hits. We have nerfed some of the big hitting abilities of say DKs, Retadins and even Destro locks. But we think damage would still be high even with those changes. If a single Enhancement shaman can take out a single healer, then when the healer is focused by two dps at once, they will have no chance.

I absolutely agree with you, Enhancement PvE is great. I may not top the chart, although I do on some fights, but for the most part I have a more than respectable showing.

As well, yes, my PvP experience is that I cannot kill a healer with the exception of other Shaman (but this is solely dependant on being able to purge Earth Shield and Interupt fawlessly). However, it is also that I cannot kill many classes/specs without full effort and every cooldown I have. Is this the way it should be? I leave such answers up to you. But if a single player cannot kill a healer, or come close to achieving that, then what happens in scenarios like this:

3v3 team event. The fight starts and the result is that my healer is dead, and the other dps on my team is a well. On the other team, both dps are dead. So now its just 1 dps VS 1 healer. What you just suggested it that the healer wins by default. And I hate to say it, but this scenario happens relatively frequently. Of course this assumes that the healer does not mess around.

So what do we do now? Or where do we go from here?

Should a single dps be able to kill a healer? Maybe. If this is the event that takes place however. The way I see it is that if a single dps has the capability to kill a healer, and I'm not saying it should be easy, then it is the responsibly of the team that healer is playing with to slow/stop the dps that is after the healer. Thus working as a team, not living just because they heal for so much. The healer shouldn't just be able to stand there while 2+ people beat on it and possibly kill it. Something which I am sure you are familiar with.

Maybe you believe I am wrong when I say this. Which is cool. You're the dude in charge. I only ask that you give it a thought, and think about us "little" guys that are maybe not at the forefront of the problem you are trying to fix.

[ Post edited by Mohawk ]

Hopebringer

< HaIsTa ViTTu >

Gurubashi

179. Re: Resilience change 06/22/2009 11:10:25 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

Not a bad idea imo. x%, stacking up to 5 times, so the cap of 10% resilience leads to an MS effect after 5 hits. It shouldn't stack with MS.

That way MS and similar buffs would simply be a way to get the debuff up quickly. Don't think there'd be much of a point in wounding poison for rogues though.

But then I think about trees running around slapping things with their branches to apply 10% healing debuff per slap, and it just seems so ridiculous.

Except that for Paladins we would get screwed pretty hard. Everyone on the team having an MS effect would screw us and even shamans period. We don't have hots or bubbles to place on the target so guess what? When everyone on the team has damage taken and you need to heal them you can be easily silenced and screwed over. No thanks.

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