Question GC, I am currently having 20 minute + games running holy paladin frost mage in the 2s bracket. I rely on my CC and burst to kill a healer.

The only time I can kill a healer is by making them waste a trinket, cc their partner and hope they don't have a trinket, make sure a pillar isn't anywhere near said healer, have my paladin waste a minute cooldown stun, then procceed to burst. After said burst I still have to interrupt a heal and hope to god I can finish off the last of his health pool which is usually around 30-50%.

Lets not talk about the mana issue of trying to keep myself alive, my teammate alive, and still bursting.

Now on to the question, how am i possibly going to kill a healer at all anymore? I rely on one small window and now you just went ahead and made it that much smaller.

You know what, I think I will talk about the mana issue with this. Why must mages wear 2 piece valor in order to keep our mana going enough to actually burst after kiting and staying alive? Why must we rely on running away and drinking/evocating just so we can keep our mana up? Now that healers will be taking less damage I will be needing to cast more and I already run oom too fast in games.

Thank you for your time, a response would be greatly appreciated.

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Question GC, I am currently having 20 minute + games running holy paladin frost mage in the 2s bracket. I rely on my CC and burst to kill a healer.

The only time I can kill a healer is by making them waste a trinket, cc their partner and hope they don't have a trinket, make sure a pillar isn't anywhere near said healer, have my paladin waste a minute cooldown stun, then procceed to burst. After said burst I still have to interrupt a heal and hope to god I can finish off the last of his health pool which is usually around 30-50%.

Lets not talk about the mana issue of trying to keep myself alive, my teammate alive, and still bursting.

Now on to the question, how am i possibly going to kill a healer at all anymore? I rely on one small window and now you just went ahead and made it that much smaller.

You know what, I think I will talk about the mana issue with this. Why must mages wear 2 piece valor in order to keep our mana going enough to actually burst after kiting and staying alive? Why must we rely on running away and drinking/evocating just so we can keep our mana up? Now that healers will be taking less damage I will be needing to cast more and I already run oom too fast in games.

Thank you for your time, a response would be greatly appreciated.

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/respect to this poster for hitting decent ratings with a non-faceroll comp.

I notice you only have a 2v2 team atm ... hopefully that's not because it's the bracket you have the most fun in, because Blizzard doesn't find that legitimate enough to support.

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/respect to this poster for hitting decent ratings with a non-faceroll comp.

I notice you only have a 2v2 team atm ... hopefully that's not because it's the bracket you have the most fun in, because Blizzard doesn't find that legitimate enough to support.

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Why thank you for the compliment good sir. Yes 2v2 is the most enjoyable bracket for me at the moment because finding a decent 3rd player is rather difficult for some reason (I blame all the easy cleave teams) Don't get me started on finding 3 other good players.

So why not have the effect pve too, panzerkins like myself have been the target of many nerfs, and we are the ones hurt most from this only effecting player damage. Will this be made up for with changes in talent trees, glyphs, or gear?

Congratulations to Disc priests and Resto druids on your buffs!

I like the change. I remember suggesting it back when resilience was first introduced. Too bad you weren't around then, GC.

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Congratulations to Disc priests and Resto druids on your buffs!

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/mindboggle
Did you choose to read only a portion of the patch notes and base your comment solely on that?

Ghostcrawler, I am a bit confused as to what exactly is the official explanation for the illumination nerf. In your post regarding resilience (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=17899681400&sid=1&pageNo=2#29) you say that:

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Ghostcrawler - "....It does nothing for, or perhaps exacerbates, the "burst healing" problem. To attempt to counter this, we lowered the healing done by Penance and Lifebloom and hit some of the mana sustainability of Holy paladins (through Illumination) and druids (through Innervate and Improved Barkskin). Shamans were not heavily respresented in Arenas so we didn't think their healing output needed to be nerfed. It's possible healing may still be too good and that is something we'll need to keep a close eye on."

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However, is this thread: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=17899801470&pageNo=1&sid=1#9 , you state that:

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None of the changes you mention were because of PvP balance.

Many Holy paladins (on these boards even) said they were weary of only using HL spam on the tank and were willing to trade their virtually unlimited mana for the ability to contribute to raid healing in other ways. As I tried to explain in the article we posted earlier, the SS change encourages more FoL use. The Beacon change encourages you to heal targets other than the tank, while still contributing to tank healing. The Beacon change (through the HL glyph) and the SS change give paladins a little more versatility in raid healing and healing on the run. The Beacon change with a nerf to mana regen would have made paladins the strongest healer in the game by almost any estimation. We figured the regen nerf was tolerable since it never even comes into play on many fights, and you still have Divine Plea.

We think healer homogenization is a very dangerous risk. We're not going to give every healer an AE heal or a hot or a shield just so they all have the same tools. We already have 5 viable healing specs for PvE, and many raids were inviting all 5. That's better than we've ever done in the history of WoW. That's not to say there weren't some problems though, which this patch hopes to address.

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We have a thread about resilience telling us Blizzard attempted to fix the problem regarding burst healing in PvP by nerfing paladin mana efficiency, yet in another post, tell us that none of the changes were because of PvP balance. Those are contradictory statements? Was the mana regeneration/efficiency nerf PvP oriented or not? These posts are confusing and I am just trying to understand the entire thought process behind the illumination nerf.

I tend to think the illumination nerf in PvE and the divine intellect nerf are good starts, but then we have approximately 27 devalued stat points for most holy paladins. Our talent tree and the portion of the ret tree most of us take are heavily devoted to crit. By nerfing illumination to 30%, you're effectively devaluing those talent points by half. You're also increasing the MP5 on gear by what, 25%? If crit is being devalued so highly in terms of mana efficiency and MP5 is being boosted a little on gear, what plans do you have to provide a better synergy with our talents and MP5 vs. the current synergy we have with intellect and crit?

I'm not sure if this has been clarified, but:

For a spell such as Conflagarate, will its damage be effected by resilince twice?

Right now its damage is calculated off of how much the dot ticks for X4. Is the resilience change going to calculate a reduction for the final number conflag hits for or simply continue to work as it does now and calculate conflag's damage based on the amount reduced by resilience once already?

not a big fan of arenas, just never got into them (tho I'm trying them again with a few of my guild members at their request, we've played about 15 games since I returned to WOW at the release of Wrath).

I am however, a fan of BGs and world PVP (this toon was on a PVP server when I got GM) and I think the change to resil is a positive one save for the fact that it make healers who seem OP to me already, even more difficult to deal with.

I'd like to see a CC-duration reduction added to resil as well. Something that reduces CC duration based on the amount of resil would be a welcome change IMO because if you look at any of the strats from gladiators on arena junkies, they almost all seem to center around "CC-Chaining". When multiple players CC another player in succession, that player's skill is literally eliminated from the equation. I like the way AOC does it personally as CC doesn't play nearly as big a factor in most matchups.

On rage: have you looked at having rage generated from actions instead of damage taken or recieved. There are only 2 problems I can see with this: it seems a bit like runic power (which I think is a good system) and CCing a war could rage starve them (adding a PVP talent and/or glyph to generate rage when CC'd would fix this).

my input anyhow,
Stout

I am all for this change in the broad sence, I think it'll make resil more necessary and fights longer, as intended. That said i am seriously concerned about the vast numbers of healers who wear 900+ resil and are already nearly impossible to kill without a healing debuff. By dulling down burst even more, you're shutting out certain classes that have to rely on their burst to win matches.

I'm thinking about my own class of course, and mages are already notoriously bad vs healers, their mana bars always outlast ours and they can already easily heal through our burst. Our tools (counterspell and deep freeze) don't buy a big enough window to do anything to really threaten a healer.

I know mages aren't the only class who have huge issues vs healers (basically anyone without lots of interrupts, silence, healing debuffs, stuns)

The tiny nerfs to healing that were applied, are not going to be enough. Healer survivability doesn't only rely on healing, their biggest tool is having boatloads of instant or fast healing so they can stay mobile and run circles around pillars, whilst we can't...

All i'm saying is, test it thoroughly! This is a big enough change that it could easily make healers very OP in PvP.

soooo, ret burst will mean absolutlely nothing after this?

give us ms plz.

So is this not a big nerf to classes that don't bring huge cc and rely on burst for damage. IE Feral druids would add ret to the list but they are already goddly.

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We considered the idea that resilience acts like a debuff for heals, but we're not happy with what that might do to the game. You'd be in a situaiton where sometimes you might not want extra resilience since it lowers your healing. Resilience is already something of a trade-off since it often comes at the expense of other stats (though hopfully less after these changes).

There is a possibility that if fights go on for too long that dps casters may run OOM more than they should. That is something we may have to adjust, but we don't think it's simple to math out what kind of buff casters should be given at the moment. Note that the intent is not to turn every Arena match into a 20 minute slog. The intent is to have fewer 30 second matches.

I do see some people saying that healers were already in god mode and this will only buff them. Just realize that player perceptions or intentions are different. For one person, a healer in a 2 vs. 2 shouldn't be able to keep their partner up alone. For another, having a 1 healer, 4 dps team in a 5 should be perfectly viable.

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so what about rage generation? This resil change will completely ruin fury for pvp. It would be like a constant rage starvation because we are already losing 10% damage from TG.

So anying at all for Panzerkin tanks, the resilence not effecting DOTs for us anymore is going to hurt us even more. Since the armor nerf it has been tougher and tougher and thus we are limited even more to content that we out gear. So why not make the damage reduction make it available to us? How about just add it to the moonkin or imp moonkin talent? Please don't let the aspect if the game go away it would decrease the fun level big time.

Thank you for the reply about mana GC. I see what you are trying to do to make sure everyone has a fighting chance and not get insta-gibbed. However, what about the players that constantly have the 20 minute matches because they can't burst down that healer?

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we agreed on changing resilience (and it was a very long discussion) we knew we would have to look at healing, or at least the healing by prominent Arena specs

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Please "look" again and more closely at healers as they can consistently heal their full health bar whenever they feel like it in a very very small time frame over and over. Mostly things completely out of your power to stop from happening.

With such a huge change to resilience, these healers dont really need all the burst healing they have now [and it seems the changes released to the public of the ptr isnt enough] and it seems like it will be fairly impossible (AND HARDER NOW) to kill a healer unless you have 5 non-op people ccing him for 20 seconds or two OP classes ccing for 10 seconds.

What happened to the blanket mortal strike idea? With "less emphasis" on 2's do healers still need to be walking god mode?