World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Discussion Kitty DPS to high?

Ardot

< Consilio et Armis >

Ravencrest

360. Re: Discussion Kitty DPS to high? 06/16/2009 09:46:10 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
If only it were just by 50dps.

You're right. Since it isn't 50 dps. It's more like -500 dps. But hey, why let facts get in the way of a QQ amirite?

Q u o t e:
And shadow priest single target dps is still the lowest when it is played by someone that knows wtf they are doing. Why are the rules different for some classes?

So why not ask for a SP buff? You're like a crab. Pulling the other one's down while they try to escape. I think you need to reaim your crying at getting a SP buff, not asking for a nerf on a hybrid doing 10% less dps than Rouges.

Hanford

Ghostlands

361. Re: Discussion Kitty DPS to high? 06/16/2009 09:46:48 AM PDT

so should i not respec out of balance into feral dps now like i planned to?

Graul

< Trample >

Fenris

362. Re: Discussion Kitty DPS to high? 06/16/2009 09:46:56 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

And you have what evidence behind that? Would none be an accurate estimate? Rogues are out DPSing druids on every fight except for General Vezax.

The "proof" has always been there in plain sight, yet the majority of you are completely obvlivious to it in the same way Blizzard is with Death Knights.

Since you don't understand, hit the "attack target Analysis" tab.

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/4839726#damageout Yogg
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/5126213#whohitwho Freya
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/4972951#whohitwho Council
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/4368459#whohitwho Ignis
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/4644469#whohitwho Razorscale
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/5122131#whohitwho Thorim

etc. All of these have some kind of add other than Council with Yogg being the outlier but in every one of these the Druid is coming 98% within a Rogue's single target damage or doing 2% - 5% more. That's a far cry from "10% behind".

[ Post edited by Graul ]

Fruitsalad

Mal'Ganis

363. Re: Discussion Kitty DPS to high? 06/16/2009 09:47:38 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

So why not ask for a SP buff? You're like a crab. Pulling the other one's down while they try to escape. I think you need to reaim your crying at getting a SP buff, not asking for a nerf on a hybrid doing 10% less dps than Rouges.

I'm not asking for feral druids to be weaker than the other hybrid, I'm asking them to be equal to the other hybrids (not that the other hybrids are currently equal)

Lemonlimelol

Azgalor

365. Re: Discussion Kitty DPS to high? 06/16/2009 09:48:34 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

So why not ask for a SP buff? You're like a crab. Pulling the other one's down while they try to escape. I think you need to reaim your crying at getting a SP buff, not asking for a nerf on a hybrid doing 10% less dps than Rouges.

BUT WAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I LOST TO A FERAL THEY USED TO SUCK IN BC SO THEY SHOULD DO AT LEAST 1K LESS DAMAGE THAN ME I DONT CARE ABOUT THE ROGUE WHO IS BEATING ME I WANT THAT FERAL NERFED NOW WAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Itrapirun

< Rogues take zero ski… >

Arthas

366. Re: Discussion Kitty DPS to high? 06/16/2009 09:49:09 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

So what your saying is that some fights shouldnt be considered into the overall averages? Ok lets see how that works you choose one fight where mages dominate and should be discluded and feral should choose one fight where their dps dominates and should be discluded.

Honest answer is regardless to what it does to your dps it's still THERE. It's a fight and SHOULD be included on averages. You cant decide to pick and choose your fights or all arguements will boil down to a fight by fight basis which isnt what dps is balanced on.

No you dont get it. Lets say mages are dead last in all fights but 2. And in those 2 fights they are first by a good chunk. Does that mean they are balanced? And you missed my whole other point. I said up feral dps on stuff they have to switch targets on and or adds but lower their dps potential on fights where they can just stand and spam.

Fruitsalad

Mal'Ganis

367. Re: Discussion Kitty DPS to high? 06/16/2009 09:51:12 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

BUT WAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I LOST TO A FERAL THEY USED TO SUCK IN BC SO THEY SHOULD DO AT LEAST 1K LESS DAMAGE THAN ME I DONT CARE ABOUT THE ROGUE WHO IS BEATING ME I WANT THAT FERAL NERFED NOW WAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

shadowpriests sucked in bc too btw

and I'm sure more people would be complaining about rogues if this were a thread about rogues. However others might be voicing more concerns here because it's slightly more relevant to their own class since it's regarding another hybrid.

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

368. Re: Discussion Kitty DPS to high? 06/16/2009 09:51:14 AM PDT

Some of you are trying to assert that e.g. "Fire mage dps is 8700" or whatever. That is pretty meaningless. The context -- which boss or bosses you are talking about -- is everything. Even if you give the players in question a pass and assume they are operating at 100% of maximum skill (which is dubious) the raid buffs, gear and other players also vary enormously. Was the mage on adds or on the boss? Did she have to provide the Scorch debuff? All of that is relevant to the point that coming up with a simple number for how much damage mages do is a little silly. I understand the occasional desire for the game to be boiled down to that level of simplicity, but we also constantly work against that.

I never said that we allow some characters to be overpowered because they have a high skill cap. I said almost the opposite -- we have to be careful when nerfing such classes because then only the best players can achieve good dps and everyone else will underperform.

I also said you can't look at any single fight or just average all of the Ulduar fights together... except for Flame Leviathan, because that doesn't count. And maybe XT, because that doesn't count. And Vezax, because that doesn't count. See the problem? We designed Ulduar partially this way to get players to focus more on maximizing their own performance and complain less about "He is doing more better than me!"

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Guinessis

< ANDGRY GRIZZLE BEARS… >

Burning Blade

371. Re: Discussion Kitty DPS to high? 06/16/2009 09:52:01 AM PDT

OH BOY

Now ferals can look forward to a massive ill-planned nerf that will render them useless once again. I can hardly wait. And all because on some certain fights a feral druid can almost come within 5% of a rogue.

Lets conveniently ignore DKs, that other hybrid dealing more damage than ferals.

But since ENSIDIA (OMG NO WAI) was misquoted by a rabble-rousing illiterate forum dweller as stating that ferals are ALWAYS TOP DPS AND INSANE OMG, the ferals get to go back to the stone ages.

Blizzard does not deal in small nerfs. For proof, look at the entire existence of the hunter class. If you're getting nerfed, you don't go back into the pile, you go waaaaay back behind them all. Back to healing for all of you!

[ Post edited by Guinessis ]

Rekson

< Coercion >

Lightning's Blade

372. Re: Discussion Kitty DPS to high? 06/16/2009 09:52:13 AM PDT

Many people seem to be missing the very basic point why Feral dps is so high.

Having a Arms Warrior almost always automatically applying TRAUMA allows Cats to SKIP OUT on a main ability in their rotation, MANGLE, which allows them to use SHRED continuously, which shows very well during long fights. This is quite possibly the only dps tree that is able to skip out on a basic rotation in place of a far better one without sacrificing another player's dps in the process. Through this, Cats literally gain over 1.5k+ dps, allowing them to top meters and gain favor in raids over Pure classes for their additional Emergency Tanking capabilities and battle resurrections.

An obvious solution would be to make Shred benefit only from THE CASTER'S MANGLE. Not any mangle, as that would still allow raids to stack Cats (and battle rezzes) without much consequence.

[ Post edited by Rekson ]

Ardot

< Consilio et Armis >

Ravencrest

373. Re: Discussion Kitty DPS to high? 06/16/2009 09:52:41 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

The "proof" has always been there in plain sight, yet the majority of you are completely obvlivious to it in the same way Blizzard is with Death Knights.

Since you don't understand, hit the "attack target Analysis" tab.

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/4839726#damageout Yogg
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/5126213#whohitwho Freya
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/4972951#whohitwho Council
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/4368459#whohitwho Ignis
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/4644469#whohitwho Razorscale
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/5122131#whohitwho Thorim

etc. All of these have some kind of add other than Council with Yogg being the outlier but in every one of these the Druid is coming 98% within a Rogue's single target damage or doing 2% - 5% more. That's a far cry from "10% behind".

Single fight parses. A wonderful way to analyze overall dps numbers. L2Statistics please. Here's a much better analysis.

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/rank/classrank/7

And here is another comparing specs:

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/rank/clazz/dps/all/7/0/3

And of course then there's the Massive compilation data showing kitties almost a full 900 dps less than rouges overall.

Combat - 7964
Fire - 7843
Destruction - 7573
Assassination - 7283
Unholy - 7212
Feral - 7092
Shadow - 7079
Blood - 6995
Survival - 6994

Graul

< Trample >

Fenris

374. Re: Discussion Kitty DPS to high? 06/16/2009 09:54:37 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
Some of you are trying to assert that e.g. "Fire mage dps is 8700" or whatever. That is pretty meaningless. The context -- which boss or bosses you are talking about -- is everything. Even if you give the players in question a pass and assume they are operating at 100% of maximum skill (which is dubious) the raid buffs, gear and other players also vary enormously. Was the mage on adds or on the boss? Did she have to provide the Scorch debuff? All of that is relevant to the point that coming up with a simple number for how much damage mages do is a little silly. I understand the occasional desire for the game to be boiled down to that level of simplicity, but we also constantly work against that.

I never said that we allow some characters to be overpowered because they have a high skill cap. I said almost the opposite -- we have to be careful when nerfing such classes because then only the best players can achieve good dps and everyone else will underperform.

I also said you can't look at any single fight or just average all of the Ulduar fights together... except for Flame Leviathan, because that doesn't count. And maybe XT, because that doesn't count. And Vezax, because that doesn't count. See the problem? We designed Ulduar partially this way to get players to focus more on maximizing their own performance and complain less about "He is doing more better than me!"

Why do you keep repeating this as though we don't already know or haven't taken it into consideration? You don't end up on the top 20 or even top 50 parses of your given class by having to do anything OTHER THAN DPS.

It's getting to the point where all you do anymore is come and defend why Blizzard is simply having an "I don't care" attitude and throwing your hands up on ever fixing all of the broken issues that are currently in the game. You keep changing your story everytime something new comes under scrutiny. Saying that averages don't matter is also directly contradicting "bring the player not the class" when some fights are extremely skewed towards one class over the other.

You're trying to use the way Ulduar was designed as a copout for not having to actually make anything balanced, because it's your foolproof excuse, even though it's easy to see that Rogues and Death Knights are clearly doing more than any other class *on the majority of the fights in the zone* whether it's single target or AE with Ferals right behind. There are only three fights in the entire zone that do not favor those three classes; Hodir, Vezax and Leviathan.

[ Post edited by Graul ]

Monkar

< Slackers >

Lothar

375. Re: Discussion Kitty DPS to high? 06/16/2009 09:54:39 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
"He is doing more better than me!"

People get particularity offended when a class/spec that has sucked for so long, when given tools, beats the class that is being played by a moron but been on top.

Quoted that part because it made me lol.

[ Post edited by Monkar ]

Ardot

< Consilio et Armis >

Ravencrest

376. Re: Discussion Kitty DPS to high? 06/16/2009 09:54:49 AM PDT

I also think it's important to note that ferals SHOULD be receiving Hysteria and TotT in these high level fights. Berserk makes the most use out of these buffs of any other possible ability. So this also helps push feral dps up (especially on fights like XT and Ignis).

Hosiery

< Brethren >

Scilla

377. Re: Discussion Kitty DPS to high? 06/16/2009 09:55:24 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

I never said that we allow some characters to be overpowered because they have a high skill cap. I said almost the opposite -- we have to be careful when nerfing such classes because then only the best players can achieve good dps and everyone else will underperform.

Why does it often feel like a double standard though? It's good that you're cautious to nerf the damage output of classes that have a high skill cap and are putting out too much damage, but why are you even more cautious to buff the damage output of classes that have a high skill cap and aren't putting out enough?

Badsanta

< Swagga >

Spirestone

378. Re: Discussion Kitty DPS to high? 06/16/2009 09:55:58 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

Yeah, that would be nice if it were true. But it's not. Since every piece of data presented here has disproven that statement.

Yes, Ferals CAN outdps a rouge. If said feral is better geared/skilled/Hysteriad/TotT/etc. But with equal gear and skill, a rouge will ALWAYS beat the feral. Every freaking time. Stop comparing a full T8.5 Feral to a rouge in PvP Blues.

That is simply not true. Given equal gear and skill the feral can and will out dps the rogue on stationary single targets. It is close and does vary based on rng, but it happens and is clearly not in the -5% range they want for hybrids compared to pures.

The problem as I stated earlier is that when you introduce movement, positioning, and multiple targets feral dps starts to suffer quite significantly. So I am hoping they buff the second if they nerf the first.

Zalthazaar

< JINX >

Runetotem

379. Re: Discussion Kitty DPS to high? 06/16/2009 09:56:45 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
Kitty dps is probably a little too high. It's tricky though because it is a very demanding spec to play well and if nerf it for the best players, the less-skilled ones might really see their dps plummet.

.....so if it's a skill cap issue can we have siphon life back and immolate/UA at the same time? I don't see the difference here.

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