My first first. yay

what about an option that lets us turn off the shadowform/druid form graphics while still staying in that form. sometimes I like being an unshadowy priest but not healing. wtb a dual spec refund

Okay, I'll bite. In PVP shadowform costs way too much mana. Its a double penalty for being a hybrid- you want to use your hybridness? K that will be $1,000,000 for a heal and the ability to keep dpsing. I can understand being locked out of holy spells, but why is the cost so damn high? And we give up more than damage by dropping sform, we give up fade breaking snares, damage prevention, a totally #%#!*ing graphic, dots critting, etc.

What about that shaman? Oh he has a discount and gets $50 instant healing waves with Maelstrom weapon.

Why does it cost so much for Shadowform, when the defenses of shadowform are almost baseline or buffs for other classes?

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Q u o t e:


We want you to largely have to give your ability to heal in order to do decent dps. It would feel really cruddy for a player that's a healer to see you able to do a lot of healing in the same fight that you also contributed a lot to damage done. Many of the hybrid classes do contribute to healing even when they focus on dps, and that's fine as a source of differentiation. But generally we want you to have to choose between healing, tanking and dps. You need to pick a role before every fight. All of the hybrid classes have some ability to shift between roles within a fight, but it is kind of unusual when it happens (usually to prevent a near-wipe or something).

If you can change your role before a fight (even if that means having to respec and switch gear) then we consider you a hybrid class. (For purposes of this thread, let's not beat the dead horse of whether you think pures or hybrids should or do more dps and instead focus on the OP's original discussion of Shadowform.)

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There is more than just Moonkin form and Shadow form seperating a balance druid or shadow priests ability at healing, such as an array of superior instant cast heals, and stronger heals granted from Restoration, Holy, and Discipline talents; even if shadow priests and moonkin form druids had the ability to heal their healing would not match that of a healer talented to heal.

** see elemental shaman

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Q u o t e:
Why do we need Shadowform to put us in line with other hybrids, with a heavy penalty still attached? Priests and arguably Moonkin druids are the only classes that are affected by this. (the mana cost associated with shapeshifting to and from cat form is moot- they use energy.)

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Not sure I'm understanding. All Hybrids give up something by going deep into their DPS tree(s). You don't see Fury or Arms Tanking for good reason. The difference with S. Priests seems to be that there is more of a singular point for the trade-off whereas for most, the deeper you go for one the worse you do in the other area.

Of course, DKs are probably the exception here, at least in terms of Blizz's original design intent.

I can see where the argument comes from for PvP but in PvE if you have to drop shadowform for any reason other than popping a hymn then somebody's doing it wrong. 99% of the time the fact that you're locked out of your holy spells should be a non-issue.

And then of course there's the fact that even though they're locked out of their healing spells shadow priests consistently do more healing than any DPS spec except ret pallies.

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Q u o t e:
Okay, I'll bite. In PVP shadowform costs way too much mana. Its a double penalty for being a hybrid- you want to use your hybridness? K that will be $1,000,000 for a heal and the ability to keep dpsing. I can understand being locked out of holy spells, but why is the cost so damn high? And we give up more than damage by dropping sform, we give up fade breaking snares, damage prevention, a totally #%#!*ing graphic, dots critting, etc.

What about that shaman? Oh he has a discount and gets $50 instant healing waves with Maelstrom weapon.

Why does it cost so much for Shadowform, when the defenses of shadowform are almost baseline or buffs for other classes?

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Probably because that's the way it's been, and they haven't thought very much about the issue.

Drawbacks for shadow priests, moonkin, and warrior stances were part of their old school design - a design that also included such interesting things as +agi cloth.

DKs represent a newer design paradigm. Frost, blood, and unholy presence bring bonuses from base and the drawback from each stance is only not getting the other stance bonuses.

There's an opportunity to make a more functional design for the several older classes/specs with unnecessary drawbacks built in to talents or stances.

From a pvp perspective, Moonkin form seems far to limiting to be effective. There is only so much caster-dps utility Druids have and constant form switching (mostly for heal spamming survival) becomes a burden.

As a Moonkin, you're locked out of your survival skills in order to do mediocre dps. You can avoid Moonkin form all together for pvp and notice minimal difference in dps out put, but you become gibbed easier than a Rogue with out cooldowns. There needs to be a greater benefit to being in Moonkin form other than just extra armor and some spell power if you stack spirit.

Moonkin form only benefits should be expanded upon. Shaman for example have access to their entire arsenal of abilities all of the time. I'm not saying Moonkin form needs to be able to cast heals, but rather, switching to Moonkin form shouldn't necessarily be a carbon copy of the Racial form.

To further illustrate where Im going with this, what if Moonkin form also had a mechanic like, "critical strikes against you in Moonkin form generate a shield absorbing X damage." Things like that to further separate Moonkin from caster form.

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Q u o t e:


We want you to largely have to give your ability to heal in order to do decent dps. It would feel really cruddy for a player that's a healer to see you able to do a lot of healing in the same fight that you also contributed a lot to damage done.

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Sure, Shadow Priests would be big time healers like Ret Pallies and Enhancement Shamen...?

Okay, lets get back to the original poster’s point that, I’m pretty sure, was that the mechanic of making Hybrids use forms to boost their DPS, to be on par with other hybrids, is unnecessary (and possibly unfair). Now, I’m going to open this up a bit: there are 4 healing hybrid classes (Paladin, Priest, Druid, Shaman). Of these classes, Paladins have 3 unique specs that do not require form changes, Shamans have 3 unique specs that do not require form changes, Druids have 3-4 unique specs that require form changes (but only the doom chicken suffers a “tangible” penalty), and priests have 3 unique specs that require form changes. So what we are really looking at here is 8 damage/tank specs (13 unique specs total minus the 5 healing specs) and 2 of those specs have to pay a larger penalty to DPS and Heal: Shadow Priests and Doom Chickens. It does seem a little off that 25% of the hybrid DPS/tank specs have to pay a larger penalty to heal than the others.

I find your reasoning to be quite off as well. You think people would find it cruddy for someone to do a lot of dps and healing in the same fight? You do realize that absent some class mechanic (vampiric embrace) you cannot dps and heal at the same time, you chose one or the other. Someone may be able to heal and dps during a fight, but it would never be “a lot” unless somehow they figured out how to cast a heal and a dps spell in the same Global. If players took advantage of being a hybrid in this manner what other players would see is someone doing less healing and less damage than every other player in the raid, because it’s an exchange.

What the use of forms does is prevent shadow priests and doom chickens from being able to attempt to heal in any useful manner without compromising their ability to DPS due to an extra loss of mana. Shamans do not have to worry about this, paladins do not have to worry about this, feral druids do not have to worry about this, only Boomkins and Shadow Priests do.

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Q u o t e:


We want you to largely have to give your ability to heal in order to do decent dps. It would feel really cruddy for a player that's a healer to see you able to do a lot of healing in the same fight that you also contributed a lot to damage done. Many of the hybrid classes do contribute to healing even when they focus on dps, and that's fine as a source of differentiation. But generally we want you to have to choose between healing, tanking and dps. You need to pick a role before every fight. All of the hybrid classes have some ability to shift between roles within a fight, but it is kind of unusual when it happens (usually to prevent a near-wipe or something).

If you can change your role before a fight (even if that means having to respec and switch gear) then we consider you a hybrid class. (For purposes of this thread, let's not beat the dead horse of whether you think pures or hybrids should or do more dps and instead focus on the OP's original discussion of Shadowform.)

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You're all misinterpreting here and then using it as a spring board into your own arguments.

He isn't saying he wants the same dps as a pure because of shadowform. He is saying he wants the same dps as other hybrids (shadowpriests have by far the worst single target dps in ulduar).

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Q u o t e:
From a pvp perspective, Moonkin form seems far to limiting to be effective. There is only so much caster-dps utility Druids have and constant form switching (mostly for heal spamming survival) becomes a burden.

As a Moonkin, you're locked out of your survival skills in order to do mediocre dps. You can avoid Moonkin form all together for pvp and notice minimal difference in dps out put, but you become gibbed easier than a Rogue with out cooldowns. There needs to be a greater benefit to being in Moonkin form other than just extra armor and some spell power if you stack spirit.

Moonkin form only benefits should be expanded upon. Shaman for example have access to their entire arsenal of abilities all of the time. I'm not saying Moonkin form needs to be able to cast heals, but rather, switching to Moonkin form shouldn't necessarily be a carbon copy of the Racial form.

To further illustrate where Im going with this, what if Moonkin form also had a mechanic like, "critical strikes against you in Moonkin form generate a shield absorbing X damage." Things like that to further separate Moonkin from caster form.

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We just need to get rid of shadow form moonkin form and tree form they are all old mechanics that have no place in the design view any more.

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Q u o t e:
We want you to largely have to give your ability to heal in order to do decent dps. It would feel really cruddy for a player that's a healer to see you able to do a lot of healing in the same fight that you also contributed a lot to damage done. Many of the hybrid classes do contribute to healing even when they focus on dps, and that's fine as a source of differentiation. But generally we want you to have to choose between healing, tanking and dps. You need to pick a role before every fight. All of the hybrid classes have some ability to shift between roles within a fight, but it is kind of unusual when it happens (usually to prevent a near-wipe or something).

If you can change your role before a fight (even if that means having to respec and switch gear) then we consider you a hybrid class. (For purposes of this thread, let's not beat the dead horse of whether you think pures or hybrids should or do more dps and instead focus on the OP's original discussion of Shadowform.)

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I think you missed the point GC.

It is okay to force hybrids to specialize on a specific role in PVE, even through clunky (and ugly in the case of Moonkins) forms and mechanics.. but that design doesn't translate well in PVP. Please take into consideration what the other healing hybrids are capable of doing (shamans and paladins) without the need to spend GCD, mana or other.

What I take from your post is that you feel that Deathknight self-healing and stance swapping is perfectly balanced and equal to a Moonkin having to drop form (and with it a grand amount of armor and offensive capability) in order to heal. Let's not forget that Deathknight runes and runic power is ever lasting and that Moonkin mana is atrocious and eventually runs dry.

I think you need to revisit the limitations and restrictions of Moonkin and Shadowforms.