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Also, you may want to disregard Hodir and possibly Vezax, as classes that perform very well there would have their numbers inflated since casters (and castes only, as opposed to something like XT where it's everybody) have their numbers inflated greatly. It's not just a matter of casters beating melee, but more a matter of a caster doing "well" on that fight will do 3x their normal DPS.

Otherwise, interesting stuff.

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You should include all the fights. They all combine to show how well each class does in Ulduar. You can't take out the ones you don't like. At the end of the run the RL is going to be looking at the overall data to see who to bring next week, they are not going to be looking at each boss. And part of being a good player is making the most of the buffs on offer, be they from raid members or from the bosses.

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Q u o t e:
I hear there is a lot of AoE fights in Ulduar. Confirm/deny?

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And on most bosses that AoE is necessary. Obviously the are cases like Ignis where it is just padding, but generally the AoE is not wasted DPS. And remember, rets throw out similar AoE. Except we seem to have been balanced with it counting and so are at the opposite end of the meters.

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Q u o t e:
The sad part is, it's not really the best available data. The best available data is real raid logs of your average situation, your average encounter, with your average missing buffs, DPS downtime, all that other crap.

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That data is not available though. We assume blizzard use it, and have data for considerably more raids looking at how well classes scale with gear, different specs, and how vital different buffs are. But that is not available to us. While WMO could do it for the pures, for hybrids tanks and healers would pull down the stats. As would players doing special functions on bosses, rather than concentrating 100% on DPS.

This is very good work and interesting to look at. There are some interesting things mostly the differences in Mimiron compared to Hard mode. The rankings shuffle quite a bit. Is this due to survivability or what?

Another note is that the averages for top/bottom removed is exactly the same as the normal average. Is this right?

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Q u o t e:
This is very good work and interesting to look at. There are some interesting things mostly the differences in Mimiron compared to Hard mode. The rankings shuffle quite a bit. Is this due to survivability or what?

Another note is that the averages for top/bottom removed is exactly the same as the normal average. Is this right?

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My guess with mimiron hard mode would be that the data set is not as big, and people are being more careful on it still. I would expect than in a few weeks time when more people are doing the hardmode that the averages will start to look more like the normal mode, where people are more comfortable and better trust what they are doing.

After all the mimiron hardmode reduces the enrage timer, while increasing the boss HP. You would expect that this would need higher rather than lower DPS!

Poor little shadow priests.

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Q u o t e:
I will echo the other posters. Very nice work, easy layout, and this is not showing us anything we didnt already know.

They for some reason decided to balance mage dps around gimmick fights. I really dont like the idea of that, but we are middle of the pack without those two fights.

I tend to disagree alot of the time with the hunters. The hunters in my guild are normally top 3 and sometimes 1 a lot of the times. So either they are just insanely stellar players, or the rest of us are just terrible. In my experience the 2 we roll with in raids are always hovering around the top of dmg.

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Hunters tend to do better in my guild too, the rogue data is the same as my guilds results, as is the most of the other data.

God damn these forum errors are annoying as hell. "That account cannot post to these forums." Pretty sure it can. But thanks for deleting my message before posting it. Good god... so what I was going to post, summarized:

A WMO parse of my Ignis fight last night: http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/5086144

WMO's top 50 has this order for DPS:

Rogue, Paladin, Death Knight, Warrior, Druid, Hunter, Shaman, Mage, Warlock, Priest

My own fight's order:

rogue, hunter (2), warrior, mage, warrior, rogue, paladin, rogue, priest, mage, death knight, paladin, warlock, warrior, shaman

WMO shows that rogues have a 20.77% increase in DPS over mages, and 13.56% over hunters. Hunters have a 6.35% lead over mages. My own parse shows the first rogue with a 7.8% lead over the first hunter, and a 19.1% lead over the second hunter. It shows the first rogue with a 52.57% lead over the second rogue.

It shows the first rogue with a 25.9% lead over the first mage (myself) and a 65.7% lead over the second mage. Why the difference there? I'm specced FB/TTW with 4P T8; the second mage is FFB, didn't use Living Bomb, and only has 2P T8, but no 2P T7.

The first hunter has a 16.8% lead over me, but also a 10.5% lead over the second hunter, who has a 5.7% lead over me. In other words, we have an average rogue, a really good hunter, an average hunter, an average mage, a below average rogue, and a below average mage.

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Q u o t e:
Yes, everyone knows DK's do a lot of aoe damage and can do it easily with their normal dps rotations. This is not new news. It is also not new news that a lot of fights can be cheesed with aoe which make numbers a lot higher than the should be whether it helped the fight or not (in some cases it hurts).

Seriously, stop making these stupid threads. Everyone already knows about it, blizzard has already said they were going to do something about it. Stop being stupid people.

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What makes you think I made this thread to "single out" death knights? I didn't, I'll say that much. Death knights are least of my concern.

I mean, really, death knights aren't the only class that can inflate their damage. Hint: I have four Molten Fury (12% more damage against targets with 35% or less health) phases on Mimiron. This clearly influences mage DPS. My living bomb also hits all both of kologarn's arms, and all three units in P4 mimiron.

3400 living bomb crit on two extra targets plus ignite damage is 9520 extra damage every 12 seconds. That's 793 extra DPS, on top of free hot streaks (living bomb crit on one target can only proc hot streak with other nuke crits, but against multiple targets it can proc hot streak on its own if it crits against targets in order of combat log).

Rogues, paladins, feral druids, hunters etc. all have situations in which that can do the same thing -- extra damage. So please don't make it like Death Knights are the only classes getting some kind of "free" damage that's "inflating" their DPS. It's not just their AoE abilities at play here. They are still very competive versus pures on some fights considering their hybrid state.

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Q u o t e:


What makes you think I made this thread to "single out" death knights? I didn't, I'll say that much. Death knights are least of my concern.

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"I find it absolutely hilarious for instance that rogues and death knights are so consistently in the top 3 DPS across nearly every fight. And then you look at mages, hunters, and even warlocks, who are in the bottom 3 on several fights."


If you aren't singling out, what are you doing? You're spreadsheet is worthless as this data has been collected and displayed many times. What exactly is your point unless, by your most recent reply, you mean to say everyone is OP?

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I think the point is to lay out the data excluding the gimmick fights so we can see a "accurate" representation of data that is unbiased in a pure form. And yeah although this has been posted several times its never been put into a spreadsheet(that I know of ) with averages and concise data plots. So that is the point.

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It doesn't exclude gimmick fights. It also doesn't focus on damage done to the actual boss on fights where only the boss damage matters.

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The top 50 scores for Archavon are obviously going to be from players who are geared in T8 gear, thus it's one more fight to compare damage on. It's an interesting fight because it has no adds and melee doesn't have to run across the room to attack anything.

It's not like the top 50 DPS on Archavon was obtained using T7 gear... that would be silly. Plus, raids still kill him. He takes, what, 3 minutes to kill and it's easy upgrades for alts and PvP gear and such. Who cares about the alt's DPS on the fight, it's not being included in this.

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That is a really stupid reason, sounds like you have an agenda. Patchwerk and Raz are also really good at comparing DPS, might as well include them also if that is your thinking. Comparing the easiest T7 boss DPS data to T8 boss data is really really dumb.

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Q u o t e:


I think the point is to lay out the data excluding the gimmick fights so we can see a "accurate" representation of data that is unbiased in a pure form. And yeah although this has been posted several times its never been put into a spreadsheet(that I know of ) with averages and concise data plots. So that is the point.

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Except that very few fights in Ulduar give that. Yogg is way more biased towards certain classes than Hodir is for example. In a lot of the fights in Ulduar classes are attacking different things at different times, or AoEing things, highly skewing the data.

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The Ulduar fights are complex and it's hard to deconstruct them all.

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zing

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Yep. The other thing they say is "Your data are wrong because they show me doing better than I actually do, implying that I don't desperately need buffs." Sometimes that's a misunderstanding of statistics, sometimes it's borne of frustration somewhere else, and sometimes it is just simply fishing for buffs.

The Ulduar fights are complex and it's hard to deconstruct them all. If you have a fight where the mages and hunters are asked just to manage adds, does that mean you shouldn't include their numbers? If there is a fight with a lot of running around, does that mean you don't include it because it's a gimmick fight? If someone inflates their dps by attacking targets that don't matter (say Ignis constructs before they are molten), do you include that?

Thanks for the parse. :)

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As we like to say in our melee group of our raid 'Every fight in Ulduar is a gimmick'. We have several people in the top 20 for their spec/class on several fights, but honestly the whole place is junk in terms of a DPS test for all following reasons and more.

Buffs/Debuffs
Time on adds
Random AoE

blah blah. Give us a patchwerk or brutallus in the final raid teir please.

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Q u o t e:
The Ulduar fights are complex and it's hard to deconstruct them all.

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Which is of course why you made a boss specifically for the task of deconstructing, I suppose.

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Q u o t e:
God damn these forum errors are annoying as hell. "That account cannot post to these forums." Pretty sure it can. But thanks for deleting my message before posting it. Good god... so what I was going to post, summarized:

A WMO parse of my Ignis fight last night: http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/5086144

WMO's top 50 has this order for DPS:

Rogue, Paladin, Death Knight, Warrior, Druid, Hunter, Shaman, Mage, Warlock, Priest

My own fight's order:

rogue, hunter (2), warrior, mage, warrior, rogue, paladin, rogue, priest, mage, death knight, paladin, warlock, warrior, shaman

WMO shows that rogues have a 20.77% increase in DPS over mages, and 13.56% over hunters. Hunters have a 6.35% lead over mages. My own parse shows the first rogue with a 7.8% lead over the first hunter, and a 19.1% lead over the second hunter. It shows the first rogue with a 52.57% lead over the second rogue.

It shows the first rogue with a 25.9% lead over the first mage (myself) and a 65.7% lead over the second mage. Why the difference there? I'm specced FB/TTW with 4P T8; the second mage is FFB, didn't use Living Bomb, and only has 2P T8, but no 2P T7.

The first hunter has a 16.8% lead over me, but also a 10.5% lead over the second hunter, who has a 5.7% lead over me. In other words, we have an average rogue, a really good hunter, an average hunter, an average mage, a below average rogue, and a below average mage.

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5% ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL. You have two rogues (in the top 10) who didn't even break 4k damage on 25 man ignus. Everyone except out spriet breaks 4k on 10 man Ignus with less than optimal buffs. Your specific raid does not represent players playing to their utmost potential (no raid does). The reason people look at the top 50 on WMO is because they know the class is being played properly and to the fullest, not breaking 4k on 25 Ignus is not playing to the fullest. So the reason your hunters are doing so well in comparison to the rest of your raid is that they are playing closer to their top potential than the rest of the raid is.