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Q u o t e:
This is the day of our discontent. We can hope that they change the fights/healing system enough in 3.2 to make things better then. But thats then this is now.

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Pretty long day - especially if you take PvP into consideration.

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Q u o t e:
Did you *really* read the whole thread?

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So when's 3.2 again? :)

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Q u o t e:


Pretty long day - especially if you take PvP into consideration.

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he Devs have made it clear that they agree with the shaman community about PVP. I think they are hesitant because they might end up with DK's last season or Druids in seasons 2-4, but they agree that something SHOULD be done.

Its pretty clear froma resto PVE stand point they will either be making no or very minor changes pre-3.2, and Im GUESSING (not sure, just inferring) that they intend to bring others to the shaman level not vice versa.

the other thing Im worried about is that when the incoming regen nerfs hit all of the other healers will blame shaman QQ.

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Q u o t e:

Its pretty clear froma resto PVE stand point they will either be making no or very minor changes pre-3.2, and Im GUESSING (not sure, just inferring) that they intend to bring others to the shaman level not vice versa.

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I doubt it.

Doing that would make just about every hard mode encounter unnecessarily harder than they already are. I certainly can't imagine 2-3 healering a Hodir25 hard mode without Druids and Priests pulling 12-15k HPS a piece. A nerf to that would mean groups have to bring in more than 2-3 healers, which then means there won't be enough DPS for a speed kill.

Druids and Priests aren't "overpowered" in PvE right now. They sure seem that way next to a Shaman but in reality, the level of HPS they're dishing out is a necessity for progression content. The amount of incoming damage, movement, fight duration and intensity in PvE hard modes is balanced around their level of mobility and throughput.

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Q u o t e:
Doing that would make just about every hard mode encounter unnecessarily harder than they already are.

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Doesn't that really depend on how quickly Blizzard want folks to beat content and what percentage of guilds they want doing hard modes in current gear? Personally, I'd rather see a buff to shaman than a nerf to other classes, but I can see another point of view.

One way of equalizing things a bit without making huge changes would be to normalize base mana at the same time they improve our base health. Lowering our base would conveniently decrease the cost of our spells now that that is figured as a percentage of base.

WTB these number tweaks in a hot fix plx!

chainheal_jump_distance += 3

chainheal_jump_penalty = 0.35

Not likely, but doesn't hurt to ask. :p

Maybe its time for a new heal, one that accomplish versatility and utility the way other healing classes do.

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Q u o t e:


There are two general issues players are bringing up about Chain Heal.

One is that shamans aren't using Chain Heal as much as Lesser Healing Wave. This situation doesn't bother us at all. We don't want a return to Sunwell and we think it's fine that CH might be more favored in some situations (or even entire tiers) and LHW favored in others.

The second is that when you are in a perfect situation to use Chain Heal, it's not be cutting it as an AE heal. This is a more legit concern in our opinion and something we are likely to address.

The first issue is philosophical. The second is just number tweaking. Make sense?

I'll also add that we are seeing entirely too much of the "all shamans feel this way" sentiment. Unless you have been elected by the Resto community to speak on their behalf, try not to overstate things. It's entirely legit to argue how *you* feel and what *you* experience without trying to invoke a majority (that you are not actually in close communication with). This applies to ALL classes by the way. :)

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The second issue leads to a larger issue if you do it wrong.

Ulduar is already pretty easy sans a couple hardmodes. Is buffing another healer really going to be healthy for the game (as a shaman I don't care obv)?

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Q u o t e:


There are two general issues players are bringing up about Chain Heal.

One is that shamans aren't using Chain Heal as much as Lesser Healing Wave. This situation doesn't bother us at all. We don't want a return to Sunwell and we think it's fine that CH might be more favored in some situations (or even entire tiers) and LHW favored in others.

The second is that when you are in a perfect situation to use Chain Heal, it's not be cutting it as an AE heal. This is a more legit concern in our opinion and something we are likely to address.

The first issue is philosophical. The second is just number tweaking. Make sense?

I'll also add that we are seeing entirely too much of the "all shamans feel this way" sentiment. Unless you have been elected by the Resto community to speak on their behalf, try not to overstate things. It's entirely legit to argue how *you* feel and what *you* experience without trying to invoke a majority (that you are not actually in close communication with). This applies to ALL classes by the way. :)

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I've already posted enough about point #2, so I won't comment on that, but I'd like to hear more about why you think it's ok that CH receives significantly less use than LHW. To me, having an iconic spell means I should be using it. A lot. Not to the point that we were in SW, but a lot. Especially considering the initial hit and first bounce of a glyphed CH are 80% of the possible healing done, CH should be a viable choice when two people need a heal, and right now that's just not the case. And that includes raids when you bring Holy Priests and Resto Druids as well. I'm tired of having my iconic spell crowded out of my playstyle, simply because we brought 1 Resto Druid and 1-2 Holy Priests to the raid with me. Players shouldn't have iconic spells drastically marginalized, simply because you bring Class X to the raid too.

Also, please keep in mind when discussing Resto Shaman healing in SW, you didn't give us much of a choice as to which spell to cast, outside of the Kil'jaeden encounter. LHW and HW just weren't well designed and balanced spells at the time, to the point that you could be more efficient with down ranked CHs for healing single targets. I'm glad that LHW and HW have become better heals in WotLK, to the point that I don't cringe when I'm casting them. But that doesn't mean I don't want to be free to cast CH outside of Tantrum on XT hard, or outside of Frozen Blows on Hodir.

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Q u o t e:
WTB these number tweaks in a hot fix plx!

chainheal_jump_distance += 3

chainheal_jump_penalty = 0.35

Not likely, but doesn't hurt to ask. :p

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As a semi-serious question, why does chain heal even have a jump penalty?

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Q u o t e:
Also, please keep in mind when discussing Resto Shaman healing in SW, you didn't give us much of a choice as to which spell to cast, outside of the Kil'jaeden encounter. LHW and HW just weren't well designed and balanced spells at the time, to the point that you could be more efficient with down ranked CHs for healing single targets. I'm glad that LHW and HW have become better heals in WotLK, to the point that I don't cringe when I'm casting them. But that doesn't mean I don't want to be free to cast CH outside of Tantrum on XT hard, or outside of Frozen Blows on Hodir.

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This, so very much this. CH was facerolled in BC because LHW and HW both sucked horribly. No bounce or 2 bounce CH was just more efficient. Add T6 set bonuses and down ranking and you get no reason to cast anything else.

Downranking is gone. Those set bonuses are gone. LHW is a lot better. We did what we did because there were no other options. Now we have options, not many, but we do have them (the fact that one is lackluster right now aside). We've moved on in this brave new world. The devs are scared of the old model. We dont want to return to that model. Loose your fear. Let us fully into the new world.

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Q u o t e:


The second is that when you are in a perfect situation to use Chain Heal, it's not be cutting it as an AE heal. This is a more legit concern in our opinion and something we are likely to address.

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Excellent!

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Q u o t e:


There are two general issues players are bringing up about Chain Heal.

One is that shamans aren't using Chain Heal as much as Lesser Healing Wave. This situation doesn't bother us at all. We don't want a return to Sunwell and we think it's fine that CH might be more favored in some situations (or even entire tiers) and LHW favored in others.

The second is that when you are in a perfect situation to use Chain Heal, it's not be cutting it as an AE heal. This is a more legit concern in our opinion and something we are likely to address.

The first issue is philosophical. The second is just number tweaking. Make sense?

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Pretty much that is the deal. I would add, that LHW is getting used in AoE situations, and is not quite an AoE replacement. I think that fits somewhere between your first and second points.

Whoot, success, we made it to a bullet on someone's powerpoint slide.

(on a side note, I was fairly elected to speak for all shaman, but the dam dirty Orcs rigged the election during a recount.)

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Q u o t e:
We don't want a return to Sunwell and we think it's fine that CH might be more favored in some situations (or even entire tiers) and LHW favored in others.

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Um ... wouldn't this be a return to Sunwell spam? How can someone who said what they liked about the priest class was having a spell for every situation--and then buffed priests to outdo shaman at their one niche (paid for by our lack of versatility)--say this? Tell me how favoring one spell for an entire tier is supposed to be fun? Clearly I'm missing something here ...

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Q u o t e:


As a semi-serious question, why does chain heal even have a jump penalty?

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It was a balance to its original power. It was the only AoE heal in all of vanilla. It needed a balance.

But, apparently, druids and priest dont need a balance.

Edit to quatify my statement.

If CoH, PoH and WG had such harsh limitations, this discussion wouldnt be happening. Granted, if raiding in ulduar were tuned exactly as it is now, noone would be through it because some of the fights are not possible without the level of output available to priests and druids.

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Q u o t e:
The first issue is philosophical. The second is just number tweaking. Make sense?

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This does make sense and does reassure me that the underlying performance issue is still on the radar. I can see why that would not be addressed in a QA, if it's handled as a numbers issue.

There is an unresolved philosphical issue, though: Shaman have only one tool for dealing with simultaneous damage to multiple targets. If damage to multiple targets is important to some encounters in which Chain Heal isn't viable, then Shaman are designed to be situational raid healers--a restriction that does not apply to other raid healers and, quite honestly, an unfair stance.

I agree that Chain Heal's numbers can be tweaked, and that can just be a numbers issue. The design philosophy question, though, remains--what are Shaman intended to do for raid healing when their sole raid heal is "locked out" by the encounter?

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Q u o t e:
The second is that when you are in a perfect situation to use Chain Heal, it's not be cutting it as an AE heal. This is a more legit concern in our opinion and something we are likely to address.

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This is it exactly. Other AoE spells are doing a better job even in the best cast scenario for Chain Heal.

PoH: 1483mana / 30,000 heal / 20.2 HPM / 10,000 HPS
CoH: 811 mana / 18,000 heal / 22.2 HPM / 12,000 HPS
CH: 793 mana / 12,000 heal / 15.1 HPM / 4,800 HPS

A priest can heal 48,000 with 2410 mana in 4.5 seconds (PoH + CoH)
A shaman can heal 48,000 with 3172 mana in 10 seconds (CH x 4)

The priest has quicker, more powerful, and more efficient AoE healing. And less range limitations, making priest AoE healing effective even when CH isn't effective.

I'm not going to repeat the numerous suggestions. But don't turn us into one-button healers again.

edit to correct CoH mana cost.

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Q u o t e:


There are two general issues players are bringing up about Chain Heal.

One is that shamans aren't using Chain Heal as much as Lesser Healing Wave. This situation doesn't bother us at all. We don't want a return to Sunwell and we think it's fine that CH might be more favored in some situations (or even entire tiers) and LHW favored in others.

The second is that when you are in a perfect situation to use Chain Heal, it's not be cutting it as an AE heal. This is a more legit concern in our opinion and something we are likely to address.

The first issue is philosophical. The second is just number tweaking. Make sense?

I'll also add that we are seeing entirely too much of the "all shamans feel this way" sentiment. Unless you have been elected by the Resto community to speak on their behalf, try not to overstate things. It's entirely legit to argue how *you* feel and what *you* experience without trying to invoke a majority (that you are not actually in close communication with). This applies to ALL classes by the way. :)

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Part of the problem from the community is due to varying raid compositions and discrepancies between 10 and 25 man and normal versus hard mode.

For example, I feel more adequate in 10 mans than I do in 25's (with the sole exception of Mimiron hard mode phase 2 /wrist). When we run 2x Resto Druid, 2x Holy Priest with the remaining healer positions Resto Shaman and Holy Paladins in a 25 man, I cannot land a CH before the raid is completely healed up. In that 2 second span, the other raid healers have it taken care of.

If there is AOE damage and I want to use my AOE heal and cannot, there is a problem.

But that's on fights with a timed AOE like Kologarn or Ignis. On pulsing AOE damage like Mimiron phase 2 or IC hard mode, we can spam CH with effective healing. The problem is it is much less in terms of HPS.

Making a change to CH like changing it to be instant cast on a 6 second cooldown helps the first issue I stated, but it hurts the second. We would be casting an AOE heal once and picking off people with single target heals thereafter while we waited for it to come off cool down.

Any Shaman that has done Hodir on any mode will tell you how sweet it is to be in a haste beam with Bloodlust up.

If it worked that way all the time and costed a ton of mana, it would help both situations.

I believe I was elected back in 2003. With that said, chain heal is inferior to the other heals. Other healers can prep their aoe heals better, do not have the range issues, and they heal for alot more, all the while they can have things being healed while doing it.

Most of the problems that shaman have been stating are in regards to hardmode encounters, where there is massssive aoe damage. This damage is always for the most part, consistent. Chain heal, is not consistent. Not too mention mobility is huge, and we don't have many instant casts.

An example. With the new POH change, my guild has gone back to group coverage, which really doesn't work well for me. 1st of all, I can't help if my CH makes a B line to Jim who happens to be a bit lower then another guy, honestly not a big deal for me. The thing that is a problem, is when I am healing my group per say during frozen blows.

So it starts, lets just say I've been watching my riptides like a hawk and didn't have mana problems so I could keep it on people regardless if they needed the healing to in turn hopefully help my burst aoe healing during this. You start your chain heal, 1 person should be remotely safe, hoping the intial hit crit to ensure it, but sadly most people (especially when its just starting) do not NEED that much, I need it to be spread out instead of helping 1 guy out alot, another guy an ok amount, and the last 2 (1 if glyphed) get practically nothing. I feel when my CHs do not crit, people are at a serious risk of dying. Now hopefully if I can get my next CH to save those 2 guys who got the end of my last CH I maybe out of the clear, but during these 2, remotely long cast times, I am looking at my own heal as I am about to die unless someone is healing me.

On top of all of that, we are praying to god that our chain heal has another person to bounce to, it doesn't help that people are going to be running around breaking out frozen NPCs, so the likely hood of people getting each bounce is slim to none.

Damage is so bursty and quick that chain heal leads to many deaths from my experience.

Its a spel that needs to be timed to perfection to make it work remotely well.

I would be so happy if our synergy was better with riptide. The current 25% bonus to chain heal is not that fun, or great, especially with riptides mana cost.

Another problem I see is how chain heal scales.

6000-3000-1500-750

7500-3750-1875-937 (riptide bonus)

The initial hits just keeps getting pushed higher while the rest really gets nothing.

Not the greatest conclusion to my post, but I think I had some valid points in here.