The recent news about Jewelcrafting is just one more example of Blizzard taking away the potential to min/max.

I was a maxed out BS/Miner in TBC on my Ret Paladin.
I leveled Leatherworking to add to the drum rotation as we worked through BT in preperation for Sunwell.
I leveled my paladin to 80, and was raiding on him until it became clear there was 'within 5%' for Hybrids, and then there was 'maybe 5%' for DK's.
I leveled Inscription first so I could avoid the Rep Grind for my shoulders (And I had already leveled BS/Mining on my Pally and didnt care to do that again and would return to it after my rep grind was done)
I then leveled JC as it was the best for Min/Max PvE.

What is wrong with wanting your character to be 'the bes' it can be? Why are we constantly cut back in potential when all we are doing is taking a path that is open and available to everyone?

Is there any intent in allowing for an optimal path or are we to expect everyone be nerfed back (because you will not buff to match) to an equal standing?

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The recent news about Jewelcrafting is just one more example of Blizzard taking away the potential to min/max.

I was a maxed out BS/Miner in TBC on my Ret Paladin.
I leveled Leatherworking to add to the drum rotation as we worked through BT in preperation for Sunwell.
I leveled my paladin to 80, and was raiding on him until it became clear there was 'within 5%' for Hybrids, and then there was 'maybe 5%' for DK's.
I leveled Inscription first so I could avoid the Rep Grind for my shoulders (And I had already leveled BS/Mining on my Pally and didnt care to do that again and would return to it after my rep grind was done)
I then leveled JC as it was the best for Min/Max PvE.

What is wrong with wanting your character to be 'the bes' it can be? Why are we constantly cut back in potential when all we are doing is taking a path that is open and available to everyone?

Is there any intent in allowing for an optimal path or are we to expect everyone be nerfed back (because you will not buff to match) to an equal standing?

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It's all the QQing who want their players to be just as good as min/maxers without putting in the effort.

I think this JC nerf is the final straw for me. I really don't see why i should keep playing this game when all the Devs do is half-arse fix stuff. MAYBE jc gave a little advantage but nothing was stopping other players from picking it up and not only that this DOES NOT fix the root cause of the problem. People weren't just picking up JC because it was the best prof , they picked it up because of HORRIBLE gem choices for the HORRIBLE socket itemization you guys put on gems. My DK t8 set has 1 yes you read that right one red socket. The rest are blue with a yellow here and there. That is the problem , not JC at all. Why don't you guys just fix stuff the right way?

DK tier 8 bonuses are worse then t7? "Ah HA! i have an idea, lets just force them into t8 by nerfing t7"

People picking up JC because of crappy gem joices "Lets just nerf JC and call it a day".

I really really hate this forum and all the QQ that you give into blizzard , and I've never made a QQ post but you're really getting out of hand with the "easy way out" fixes instead of fixing the core issue.

Exactly. The entire concept of jewelcrafting was a failure, because there is always a best in slot, and it's not exactly hard to get that best in slot, and even then, it's not like it makes a noticable difference.

The nerf to JC just means that it no longer matters at all which prof you get. The root problem is that there is no true innovation, they are putting any new ideas they may or may not have into the new MMO.

All gear in this game is comical. In diablo there was actually some choice depending on what you were trying to get out of your character, and the truly awesome items were truly difficult to get. Now you just need to play lunchroom popularity contest and then do boring stupid crap for hours on end to have an X% chance to get it. Complete fail, beginning to end.

I will say this, this game was FANTASTIC until I hit level 60, then it has just been unending pain.

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All gear in this game is comical. In diablo there was actually some choice depending on what you were trying to get out of your character, and the truly awesome items were truly difficult to get. Now you just need to play lunchroom popularity contest and then do boring stupid crap for hours on end to have an X% chance to get it. Complete fail, beginning to end.

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Because endless Pindleskin runs are hard and not mindnumbingly tedious?

That was a mistake that should have been stomped early, placing 3 superuniques all within range of a portal. Eventually they didn't bother to nerf it because the main crowds had already died down.

I was referring to early diablo 2, before the expansion, and either way, it has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that this game is a popularity contest, and is unpleasant as a result.

You expect me to care seriously about the fact that you enjoy interacting with 18 year olds? Yes, you enjoy that, I'd rather be scr4ping my teeth with a steak knife.

AND you overlooked the only real point, which is that diablo classes had choices, in this game there was never any choice. Only a precious handful of classes can actually choose how they want to play the game: paladin, druid mainly. And even in those cases, I think there are a grand total of about 1.5 things to bear in mind. hit cap blah, stamina blah, main stat blah. Even if there weren't always an obvious best in slot, there is still no actually variety in the end game items.

Guided arrow spam vs meph/diablo while they can't attack back.

Also awesome.

Seriously, drops in Diablo 2 were more at the mercy of RNG, and more tedious than WoW has ever been.

Not to mention the loads upon loads of worthless unique items and sets, with a handful of super valuable ones.

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The nerf to JC just means that it no longer matters at all which prof you get.

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Isn't that the point? So that your profession is a customization of your character rather than just another gear slot to min/max? It's not like there is much skill involved in going to EJ to find out what profession/gear/enchant/gem all the raiders will take to max their dps. There is no less homogeneity when all raiders take the same profession because spreadsheets say it is the best for raiding. Why not let people just select whichever profession they otherwise prefer and have the player's physical capacity to press buttons and stare at add-ons determine how well they do on the all-important meters?

I was never even talking about

a few isolated, and later nerfed incidents of diablo2 design being imperfect.

I'm talking about the fact that

it was still a drastically superior game in spite of that

and for reasons that you are intentionally ignoring, because you aren't capable of refuting them.

I myself am not a min/max type player. Well....not completely. My guild is casual and my RL precludes me from getting as full on min/max as I would LIKE to be.

But I have to agree here. WTF happened to the old adage "If you want to be <insert profession> then you had best drop <one of your current professions> or deal with it"?

The summer time really cuts into my WoW time because the wife is home. YAY marriage. But I had planned to level my rogue to 80. DROP his almost 400 skill LW to pick up mining and have him be my farm bot for my warrior and DK. My Dk is already a JC. I was thinking about dropping my warrior's MAXED out mining to level up JC.

This is a LOT of time and gold invested in this switch. If people are WILLING to go through this, then why is there a drawback? Isn't the whole process enough of a downer?

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Seriously, drops in Diablo 2 were more at the mercy of RNG, and more tedious than WoW has ever been.

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Never played Diablo 2, but I think the poster is more upset about the fact that end-game content requires cooperation with other people and that makes it unpleasant since the outcome is no longer solely dependent on your own actions. If so, the solution is not to play massively multi-player online games, especially ones specifically designed to make players cooperate to accomplish goals.

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Isn't that the point? So that your profession is a customization of your character rather than just another gear slot to min/max? It's not like there is much skill involved in going to EJ to find out what profession/gear/enchant/gem all the raiders will take to max their dps. There is no less homogeneity when all raiders take the same profession because spreadsheets say it is the best for raiding. Why not let people just select whichever profession they otherwise prefer and have max dps be more dependent on the player's physical capacity to press buttons and stare at add-ons determine how well they do on the all-important meters?

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So....its OUR fault Blizz can't better design THEIR game?

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Isn't that the point? So that your profession is a customization of your character rather than just another gear slot to min/max? It's not like there is much skill involved in going to EJ to find out what profession/gear/enchant/gem all the raiders will take to max their dps. There is no less homogeneity when all raiders take the same profession because spreadsheets say it is the best for raiding. Why not let people just select whichever profession they otherwise prefer and have max dps be more dependent on the player's physical capacity to press buttons and stare at add-ons determine how well they do on the all-important meters?

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Yes, we know every obvious thing in this post. That is to say, every word of it.

You say players should select what they prefer, but you don't state any reason why a preference would exist. There is no difference, there is no innovation, there is no anything. Pick something and get the same oatmeal as everyone else.

The devs have failed to make a choice: they want things to be different, and they want them to be the same. It is not possible in this universe, and they are continuing to destroy their own game while stumbling towards this illogical goal.

They are eliminating alot of the min/max stuff.

Rocket Boots - the JC nerf - Low lvl twinking..

If you're doing something that interferes with their vision of the game then it will be nerfed. It makes it alot easier to keep things balanced if they cut down on the variables.

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They are eliminating alot of the min/max stuff.

Rocket Boots - the JC nerf - Low lvl twinking..

If you're doing something that interferes with their vision of the game then it will be nerfed. It makes it alot easier to keep things balanced if they cut down on the variables.

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Game is gonna get pretty damned stale pretty damned quick :'-(

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You say players should select what they prefer, but you don't state any reason why a preference would exist.

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That is exactly the point. I don't need to know why a player would prefer one over the other because it shouldn't matter. I picked tailoring because I chose a cloth wearing class and I thought the concept fit. I picked alchemy because I chose to be a warlock, due to my own irrelevant preferences, and alchemy fit my concept of the character. Other people may have other reasons for selecting their choices. There is no reason these particular choices, which are generally made early on in character development, should disproportionately impact end-game raiding.

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Game is gonna get pretty damned stale pretty damned quick :'-(

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Word =/

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So....its OUR fault Blizz can't better design THEIR game?

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Back to playing Frozen Throne Ladder games and Dota. Sick of all this nerfing, buffing, confusion, and just plain lack of direction when it comes to design philosophy in this game.

Ive been a JC since TBC and not some FOTM JC'er. It definitly sucks that they are sucking every bit of individuality out of classes, professions, etc in this game.

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Ive been a JC since TBC and not some FOTM JC'er. It definitly sucks that they are sucking every bit of individuality out of classes, professions, etc in this game.

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Can you expand on what you mean by "sucking [out] every bit of individuality"? How does this change affect the "individuality" of JC? A player who has JC will be different from a player that does not in terms of available dailies, mats to farm, and earning capacity among others, it just will no longer provide a DPS advantage relative to most other professions. Or are you just equating individuality with DPS advantage?

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Never played Diablo 2, but I think the poster is more upset about the fact that end-game content requires cooperation with other people and that makes it unpleasant since the outcome is no longer solely dependent on your own actions. If so, the solution is not to play massively multi-player online games, especially ones specifically designed to make players cooperate to accomplish goals.

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And there's single player games that are *much* more skill dependent than Diablo 2, like say, Viewtiful Joe. Not to mention WoW is more skill dependent in raids than Diablo 2 ever was.

And Diablo 2 suffered from the balance rollercoaster *very* heavily, with things like corpse explosion (which was nerfed before I ever rolled a Necromancer). And in Diablo 2 you can't respec, so if a patch screws your build over you get to grind up again.

That's not skill, that's tedious.

The difficulty that you are feeling is indicative of an overall problem.

* Blizzard has a consistent way of itemizing their slots in most cases. If it's a bonus that's "meh" (like stamina for a DPS class), they oftentimes will give you a slot with approximately what you would want (red or yellow). If the bonus was worthwhile, they oftentimes gave you a meh option to offset the possible bonuses (blue for dps).

This caused a larger issue with the bonuses from JC, because you didn't just get the bonus for having the better gem, you *also* got the bonus unlocked from activating your gear piece and possibly from using a stronger meta gem, without the usual drawbacks with other professions. While this bonus was amazing, it also made it completely out of line with the other professions in terms of benefits given to the player, causing the vast majority of high end players to min/max to JC.

To make the other options viable, they'd either have to buff the other professions and/or nerf JC. The easiest and least painful route is to nerf JC - this allows them to keep their current trend without suffering some of the major design problems they might otherwise encounter.

My suggestion is that if you want to keep JC as is, you instead come up with an alternative method to buff the others to be as viable as JC. Unfortunately due to the itemization of differing classes and gear, this is probably not possible to get it right - hence the nerf.

And with the homogenization of many of the classes, it's unlikely that they would consider options to allow JC to be better for some, tailoring better than others, etc., because they'd rather you had a choice versus being pidgeon-holed into a pre-selected option.