World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> GC, I'm sorry but you're severely misinformed

Zebrimuri

< The War Council >

Silver Hand

160. Re: GC, I'm sorry but you're severely misinfo 05/25/2009 01:16:57 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
The majority of most Paladin's healing that I ever came across before WotLK was FoL. HL was a nuke kept primed via Light's Grace in case the tank got low enough to be dangerous.

And they still had very high HPS compared to other classes with FoL. The fact that HL was a bigger heal than FoL back then doesn't mean FoL was weak. It was still more powerful a single target heal than anything any other class had at its disposal.

Resto Shamans are like 1960 Ford Thunderbirds - was awesome back then, now it barely runs.

Melman

< Y SO SRS >

Fenris

161. Re: GC, I'm sorry but you're severely misinfo 05/25/2009 01:23:05 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

And they still had very high HPS compared to other classes with FoL. The fact that HL was a bigger heal than FoL back then doesn't mean FoL was weak. It was still more powerful a single target heal than anything any other class had at its disposal.

FoL was about the smallest most efficient single target heal, and it still is now. Hell, I remember noting that my priest's Flash Heal healing for more than my Pally's FoL when it was in the 60s and my pally was level 70 in t5 content, and costing more too.

Strategia

< Retribution >

Drak'thul

162. Re: GC, I'm sorry but you're severely misinfo 05/25/2009 01:23:42 PM PDT

Has anyone with an opinion on this matter actually done any of the Hard mode encounters? There's a big difference between normal and hard mode and from what I've experienced so far mp5 is useful for these encounters.

I tend to favor strictly int gems and pick up gear that is itemized with mp5/crit/spell power. I would imagine any paladins that heal hard mode encounters would go for the same thing.

Mcnaulty

< TBA >

Black Dragonflight

163. Re: GC, I'm sorry but you're severely misinfo 05/25/2009 01:25:34 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

You need to brush up on your Paladin history.

The class has been used primarily for tank healing for years. If they didn't have big nuke spams that gave them very high HPS, they wouldn't be used for tank healing. A druid doing single target heals is just as "efficient" in terms of longevity. Just can't match a Paladin's HPS though.

Holy Light Rank 7 (Max was 11) was the heal I used when I needed higher HPS than FoL. But blizzard didn't like that.

7/10

Angella

< Anonymous >

Sargeras

164. Re: GC, I'm sorry but you're severely misinfo 05/25/2009 01:57:06 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Has anyone with an opinion on this matter actually done any of the Hard mode encounters? There's a big difference between normal and hard mode and from what I've experienced so far mp5 is useful for these encounters.

I tend to favor strictly int gems and pick up gear that is itemized with mp5/crit/spell power. I would imagine any paladins that heal hard mode encounters would go for the same thing.

Mp5 is just not worth as much as crit or SP. Contrary to popular belief, you can heal through DP and you should still stack int (popping wings the first time helps).

The only difference is you end up with 0-25% mana instead of 75%+ at the end of the fight.

We cast HL b/c we like hitting 1/8" nails with a sledge hammer.

Strategia

< Retribution >

Drak'thul

165. Re: GC, I'm sorry but you're severely misinfo 05/25/2009 02:28:18 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Mp5 is just not worth as much as crit or SP. Contrary to popular belief, you can heal through DP and you should still stack int (popping wings the first time helps).

The only difference is you end up with 0-25% mana instead of 75%+ at the end of the fight.

I'm assuming you've tried or completed some hard modes then? Or is this just theory crafting?

Tinjai

< Amazingly Awesomely … >

Icecrown

166. Re: GC, I'm sorry but you're severely misinfo 05/25/2009 02:51:04 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

No, it isn't. You have not experienced the content where this arguement is targeted towards, and thusly your opinion means, to be blunt, jack sh*t. Naxx -> malygos was and still is a complete joke.

There is no "embracing" the new loot, the new loot is trash. Plain and simple, you wouldn't know because you haven't experienced the content that it's rewarded from. Ulduar offers very little in terms of straight upgrades from naxx T7 quality loot. A lot of the BiS pieces for paladins are from the TEN man version.

What GC doesnt seem to understand, is that illumination / crit is NOT regen. Illumination effectively lowers the spellcost of the heals that you crit. It does not "regen" anything. The problem lies within Divine plea and replenishment, which both scale off of max mana.

Paladins have 2 modifier talents for intellect. Intellect increases spell crit, it always has. So if we (holy paladins) stack intelect, our regen (DP / replenish) become more and more effective. Illumination remains the same, because the spell costs remain the same.

Haste counter acts mp5, which is why all the new loot is trash, almost every piece is counter productive. Haste decreases cast times, which allows you to cast more spells in a given time frame. MP5 gives you a set amount of mana per 5 seconds. It does not scale, at all.

So if you stack haste and mp5, you are casting more spells in a given time frame with more haste, and regening the same amount of mana from you mp5 since it lacks scaling.

The more haste you get, the more casts you can complete. If you go from casting 100 holy lights to 150 holy lights in a fight, because of all the haste you receive from ulduar plate, you expend MORE mana and youre gaining the SAME AMOUNT of mana from your mp5.

mp5 scales negatively with more haste, which is why the majority of the gear in this content patch, is trash.

25 mans are not "OMG so hard", with 7 healers, its a joke... 25 man General is waaaaaaaaay easier than the 10 man version because you have 7 healers healing the MT... some 25 man bosses might hit harder, but you have 6 other people helping you keep people alive.

25 man Iron Council is easy on 25 man... not much has changed since the Naxxramas days of 25 man versus 10 man. So using that as an argument is silly, because yes 25 man content dishes out a little more damage, but your tanks have more life, your raid has more buffs, and your raids have around 7 healers, so I fail to see the justification to using the "You haven't stepped foot in 25 mans so shut up."

Hint: Paladin gear will more than likely have mp5 from here on out or they will probably end up nerfing some of our talents, I would just love to see blizzard add more hit to elemental shaman gear so all the Paladins saying they'll switch to that to maintain the Crit haste balance will QQ more.

Odes

< Agitprop Theatre >

Earthen Ring

167. Re: GC, I'm sorry but you're severely misinfo 05/25/2009 03:40:46 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Mp5 is just not worth as much as crit or SP.

That's one of the reasons it's being added... This is pretty ridiculous, arguing against a nerf by saying it'll make your class worse in some way. That's the whole !#!!ing point people.

Quatros

< Symbiotic >

Chromaggus

168. Re: GC, I'm sorry but you're severely misinfo 05/25/2009 03:43:34 PM PDT

WTB 1.5 second chain heal!

Vice-GM of Symbiotic
symbioticguild.org
13/14 Ulduar ^_^
12 Fragments!

Odes

< Agitprop Theatre >

Earthen Ring

169. Re: GC, I'm sorry but you're severely misinfo 05/25/2009 03:43:36 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Odes is an angry priest/druid/shamans wanting Paladins to get nerfed so they can out regen and out tank heal Paladins!

Just between you and me, I'm also a lizard man.

Orlando

< Blackout >

Stormscale

170. Re: GC, I'm sorry but you're severely misinfo 05/25/2009 04:19:31 PM PDT

"you designed it, so you know how it works"? no, you designed it, so you know how you intended it to work. fact is, the class in play doesn't work the way you designed it to work--mp5 is a dump stat, and the only caster stat that any paladin worth his/her salt gears away from more is spirit. before Ulduar, i had less mp5 on my gear than i did at the end of TBC, and all the other healers were still complaining about how i never had to worry about running out of mana.

that is seriously the silliest and, frankly, egotistical thing i've ever seen written by any dev of any game. if designing the class means you know how it works, then why did every major patch from 1.0-2.0 include a nearly complete overhaul of at least one class? why did death knights get hit with the nerf bat so hard, if you knew how they worked when you implemented them?

[ Post edited by Orlando ]

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

171. Re: GC, I'm sorry but you're severely misinfo 05/25/2009 04:24:12 PM PDT

Forgive the long response. This thread generated a lot of questions and comments.

Q u o t e:
If we were designed to have MP5 on our gear, who dropped the ball in t7 & forgot to put it on there?

We nerfed a lot of regen mechanics in between T7 and T8. Players were worried about regen being too low so we made sure the stats were there. It appears that players aren't having mana problems on the normal encounters but are having to be more careful on the hard modes. So we need to get some more hard mode data.

Q u o t e:
Holy pallies are working the way you designed them to. We have a very narrowly defined role in raids: we heal the tank, and pretty much nothing else. When we have asked to expand into other roles, we have been gently brushed off. We have our niche.

This reads as "Because we don't have AEs or hots, we should never run OOM on single targets." Do you think that's a smart design? Why have mana at all? Should / could Holy paladins just work like Ret and Prot where mana is a formality?

Q u o t e:
If your going to make Paladins want Mp5 again then you've also got to make FoL useful again. Atm there is absolutely no reaso to use it, and its not just because Regen is just too high. The amount of healing power required + glyphs means in every level of content Pallies live and die by Holy Light.

To be clear, we think that's a problem. When the toolbox isn't large, it's important that every tool does something. The solution is just a little tricky. Nerfing HL won't go over well, but buffing FoL just risks making paladins overpowered. To fix this, which we might do, we have to tweak carefully.

Q u o t e:
Otherwise there'd be no sense in countless FAA tests on airplanes before they're approved for commercial use, countless crash tests on cars before they are deemed road-worthy or even "Beta Tests" on software before it goes fully public. You should know the process better than everyone.

A thing needing testing is not the same as the implementers not understanding it or having a goal for how it should work. What the FAA does not do is throw a bunch of parts on an airplane and let the passengers sort out how best to make them work. If passengers said "No, it's cool. We feel safer walking around the cabin instead of being buckled in," that doesn't mean the FAA should let them. You also don't have passengers in the cabin telling the pilots how to fly. You *do* have customers providing feedback on what they liked and didn't like about the flight experience and then the airline can choose to take that feedback seriously or disregard it at their peril.

Analogies can always be stretched to the breaking point though. Mostly I want to say please don't over-interpet my original comment. I wasn't saying our players aren't enormously creative and I have little doubt some of them could outplay me even on my best class. What I was cautioning against were the "You should go play this class in PvE / PvP sometime, because then you'd understand how it works." That, I hope you agree, is a bit of a silly thing to say.

Q u o t e:
Mp5 off our gear, or change us to care about it. We suck as healers in Ulduar and you're not helping us by saying our garbage gear is that way on purpose.

I am saying, and have consistently said, we would do the latter and not the former. Let's lay off the use of "stupid" shall we?

Q u o t e:
But you've made intellect a better regen stat than spirit, even for the spirit-based healers! Doesn't that seem wrong to you?

You are rarely choosing between just Int and Spirit. It's also fine if you prefer Int to Spirit. The danger comes when you say "My gear is junk because it has Spirit on it." That is what paladins are saying about MP5. Our stance is that's not a problem with the gear -- it's a problem with the stat not being attractive enough. We already run the risk of PvE gear being as homogenized and well, boring, as PvP gear. We need to use all of the stats we have available or every tier of healing plates is going to be "Your previous tier, plus 10% more Int and Crit."

Q u o t e:
If all I had was SP and crit I would have an infinite mana pool. Awesome. I'd still only be healing one target and I'd still have the majority of my throughput go to overhealing. Because of the pigeonholed nature of healadins, nothing would change.

Having a limited role does not allow you to be overpowered in that role. Are you arguing that Holy priests should not run OOM on PoH or druids should not run OOM on hots because that is a strong niche for them?

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

172. Re: GC, I'm sorry but you're severely misinfo 05/25/2009 04:24:34 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Q u o t e:
GC, I'm going to be very honest with you. I was stacking MP5 in Burning Crusade. I never liked the idea of having to cast in order to regen mana from crits. It seemed silly to me. We got through Black Temple, downing Illidan, and I was a very effective healer with a reasonable amount of crit and a high MP5 value..

mp5 WAS good in tbc. With the introduction of DP is became underwhelming.

Agreed. We want paladins to want MP5. The game works better, in our opinion, when that happens.

Q u o t e:
We don't want things handed to us on a silver platter. But on the flip side, we don't want our play experience so neutered and watered down to the point where we may as well just be reading a strategy guide and following it letter for letter with no room for experimentation or interesting builds.

But I guess what I have to say will fall on deaf ears again. You want to know what's sad? I'm not even really angry anymore. I'm simply depressed. Games are supposed to be fun, not depressing.

What you are missing, IMO, is that a lot of players didn't think it was fun for JC and Engineering to be overpowered in PvP. They didn't like that they felt outplayed just because they chose not to reroll to those tradeskills. What is your answer to them? That they are sucking the fun out of the game and need to L2P? I know it's not fun to be nerfed (and let's be clear - we have not announced any paladin healing regen nerfs), but you seem to be arguing that being overpowered is fun so what's the harm?

Q u o t e:
I'm convinced the best option for Blizzard to make MP5 matter would be to:

- Change Replenishment to restore mana every second based on your MP5. 1% of your casting MP5 returned per second.

-Change Illumination to restore mana on crits based on your MP5. 35% of your casting MP5 returned per HL crit, 20% per FoL/Shock crit.

This makes Intellect less of a godly stat due to replenishment (solves that problem for Priests and Druids too,) it makes MP5 scale significantly better (for paladins at least - shamans still need to be addressed,) and crit continues to be a valuable stat. Haven't done any math or anything to support my numbers, it's just an idea off the top of my head, and to go along with it I'm sure FoL would need a throughput buff (even if it went along with a mana cost increase.) My holy paladin isn't geared very well at all, but even with a mixture of blues and naxx gear, I'm finding FoL to be pretty much entirely inferior to both HL and Shock for emergencies in smaller groups.

Yes. Changes like that would make MP5 more meaningful without removing potentially fun mechanics like Illumination or DP.

Q u o t e:
Hey blizz, stop screwing over regen for everyone that is not in top tier, thanks.

The top tier are on Ulduar hard modes and they ARE running out of mana. :)

Q u o t e:
P.S. It was nice getting some feedback on this so thanks for stopping by for once in a blue moon. I'll see you sometime next year GC, since you don't like to reply to any intellectual remarks or even witty, sarcastic comments.

We are often faced with comments like this. What would your solution to them be? That I spend 8 hours a day on the forums? That I pay more attention to paladin issues and ignore the less deserving classes? That I someohow figure out which are the posts it's okay for me to respond to? This seems like a losing proposition for us. Our standard operating procedure is just to ban players who keep making a fuss about where we do or don't post. Better yet, just don't do it. :)

Q u o t e:
You totally missed the point. It's possible to function as a healer without having talents related to your regen stat, Disc priests and Shaman do it just fine.

Quoting this for truth. "Scales less" is not the same as "doesn't scale at all." "Less useful than another stat" is not the same as "junk."

Q u o t e:
I'm not sure what to believe anymore with how little they've proven themselves to know about Shamans. At this point, i'm half-expecting a nerf to Healing Stream Totem because on WWS parses it's accounting for such a high % of our healing(because of the bug with wws)

And here we do again. Does saying things like this actually make you think we are more likely to listen to you? :)

Q u o t e:
The fact that you honestly believe this makes your previous statement, about knowing our class, completely moot. Even if we had 6000 spell power and 70% crit in a raid, you think honestly most of that still wont be overheal and our EHPS might go up a bit but we will still be sniped by aoe heals and hots.

You are honestly arguing that paladins are so far behind that giving you absurdly high spell power and crit wouldn't create a balance problem?

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

173. Re: GC, I'm sorry but you're severely misinfo 05/25/2009 04:24:38 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
What can we do to make them understand this? If our spells costed zero mana, we would still be unable to match the effective healing of the other three classes.

I am fairly certain the other classes would disagree.

Q u o t e:
First of all, you're arguing that "If paladins remove mp/5 from their gear, they'll remove stamina and they'll remove armor from their gear and then they'd be over powered." This is a terrible argument and having it influence any thought process is horrible. Paladins may pick other stats over mp/5 but they do not, and cannot pick these stats over stamina and armor. There are no raid drops that have 0 armor and 400 spell power.

I was trying to make a point. Players were trying to argue that it's okay for them to stack crit because it can't make paladins too effective at healing. The argument is apparently that paladins are so far behind and so narrow in focus that the actual amounts by which their spells heal are irrelevant. That argument seems lacking, IMO.

Q u o t e:
Secondly, Paladins are already the weakest healer simply due to the fact that they have no raid heals. It's like a knife in a gun fight: you can give them a sword but they'll still lose to the healers hitting 4+ people at once.

I have seen plenty of healers claim they are the weakest healer. Resto shamans are saying it a lot right now. What makes you think they will agree that you are already the weakest healer?

Q u o t e:
The class was tuned around the assumption that Paladins would more willingly accept mp/5 on their gear. Other stats weren't meant to be so overwhelmingly better at returning mana, and paladins certainly aren't supposed to have near indefinite mana pools in the very first tier of raiding in the expansion. That's what he's getting at. There is clearly something wrong here that needs to be fixed, and the devs realize that. They understand the class just fine.

Kaeldin gets it, or at least understands our POV.

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Caean

< Covenant >

Proudmoore

174. Re: GC, I'm sorry but you're severely misinfo 05/25/2009 04:39:33 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
I am fairly certain the other classes would disagree.

Are you seriously suggesting that perception is more important than what actually happens in raids?

Please tell me that's not how you regulate this game world.

Please demonstrate how paladin mana regeneration as is makes us overpowered.

That mana means nothing if it doesn't translate directly into increased effective healing.

Please show me the error of my ways and I'll be happy to say, damn GC made his point and backed it up with real data.

What other classes think or don't think is a rather questionable way to go about balancing abilities.

Why don't you ask us?

We'll be happy to tell you exactly how much mana we regenerated and how much effective healing we did with it.

It's hardly a secret.

Drayton

< Acies >

Sentinels

175. Re: GC, I'm sorry but you're severely misinfo 05/25/2009 04:40:25 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
We nerfed a lot of regen mechanics in between T7 and T8. Players were worried about regen being too low so we made sure the stats were there. It appears that players aren't having mana problems on the normal encounters but are having to be more careful on the hard modes. So we need to get some more hard mode data.

The only regen mechanic I recall getting nerfed was spirit. That didn't effect holy paladins at all, so I honestly don't understand your answer.

Kemerogh

Lightninghoof

176. Re: GC, I'm sorry but you're severely misinfo 05/25/2009 04:41:45 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

I have seen plenty of healers claim they are the weakest healer. Resto shamans are saying it a lot right now. What makes you think they will agree that you are already the weakest healer?

Resto shaman are not the weakest class, depending on a fight and it's mechanics one class or another will do better or worse. The issue with resto shaman is this. The Iconic heal Chain heal, Is unable to compete in both HPS and usability compared to the other classes. Shaman are now moving to becoming spot healers with Lesser Healing Wave and Riptide, Which isnt' as terrible as some people make it out to be. The issue shaman have right now.. In PVE anyway is that We use our single target heal and CD hot to raid heal more than our AOE heal because it simple isn't as effective. A Resto shaman with decent gear can cast 2x Lesser healing Wave +Riptide have three chances at procing a watershield charge and get more effective healing done in the same time it takes to cast a Chain heal.

Sophitía

< Amicitia >

Terenas

177. Re: GC, I'm sorry but you're severely misinfo 05/25/2009 04:44:23 PM PDT

I wish they'd just come out and say it.

Patch 3.2: Armageddon Healadin nerfs inbound.

I'm calling it now.

A man is truly a prisoner only as long as he agrees to remain one. After that, in his heart, at least, he is free. And where his heart is, his body may follow if his will is strong enough.-Rehgar

Kemerogh

Lightninghoof

178. Re: GC, I'm sorry but you're severely misinfo 05/25/2009 04:45:21 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Are you seriously suggesting that perception is more important than what actually happens in raids?

Please tell me that's not how you regulate this game world.

Please demonstrate how paladin mana regeneration as is makes us overpowered.

That mana means nothing if it doesn't translate directly into increased effective healing.

Please show me the error of my ways and I'll be happy to say, damn GC made his point and backed it up with real data.

What other classes think or don't think is a rather questionable way to go about balancing abilities.

Why don't you ask us?

We'll be happy to tell you exactly how much mana we regenerated and how much effective healing we did with it.

It's hardly a secret.

I'm pretty sure his remark was at the very least a little sarcastic. why you actually took the time to post this i'm not sure. simply put, Paladins MT heal, you expect to top meters while on the MT? tell me please how what happens in raids with your healing not being on top of the meters is a result of anything but the job your doing. A healers Mana should never be infinite. If that mana doesnt really matter and doesnt = more healing done. Then why do you wany to have it?

Elzam

< Chupathingy >

Akama

179. Re: GC, I'm sorry but you're severely misinfo 05/25/2009 04:55:45 PM PDT

Too bad if the Paladin's job is compromised even a bit, every other healing class can perform the same job and then some.

Even taken away from strictly being MT healers due to a reduced strength in crit/itemization shifting stats, Paladins don't have the tools necessary to fairly assume the other healers' roles.

Forum > CLASS ROLES > HEALING