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Q u o t e:


They rely on attacks that hit multiple opponents.

Cleave just happens to be an iconic multiple target melee ability.

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This was true Back In The Day, especially when you could have a Warrior (Sweeping Strikes + Whirlwind) and a Combat Rogue (Blade Flurry). Now it just describes any team that focuses on melee and includes healers (read: not double DPS).

People don't think of melee + healer as a cleave team because the loose definition is usually "more melee than anything else", but it still kind of works.

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Q u o t e:
TL;DR. Language means what it's used to mean or accepted to mean, if it means anything at all. If enough people are using cleave to mean certain 2s teams, then it can mean those 2s teams.

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Yes, but terminology is important. Uncritically calling a 2's team a "cleave" (when that is not the generally accepted term) leads to a loss of credibility.

Furthermore, making "cleave" synonymous with "melee" results in the former becoming redundant, and therefore far less useful as a descriptor.

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Q u o t e:
Hey,

Remember when enhance had a viable bracket in arena? Yeah, TBC was the golden age of WoW.

Any enhance shaman remember entering their first BG post 3.0? Yeah, nothings changed.

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I tried to get my friend to go 2 hander enhance while I healed on a resto druid in s4... they kept refusing T_T I was so sad. Enhance just ate locks and priests to pieces.

cleave came from 5s, as that guy posted in another spot. traditional cleave team was warrior, paladin, priest, rogue, shaman.

the cleave came from stacked melee, with windfury totems. the warrior would then spam "cleave" and sweeping strikes to basically decimate anyone that got close. the burst from a rogue or enh shammy just was the icing on the cake.

It was traditionally considered a faceroll team, and i know this since i rolled one to great success in S4.

Edit: 3s cleave was resto sham/warrior/ret paladin from S3 and S4. another face roll team who job was just do silly burst and wait for windfury procs since its impossible to keep cloth or leather up vs that burst.


modern terminology just refers to any stacked melee.

owned

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Q u o t e:

Do you consider hunter a caster?

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The real terminology would be "range" instead of "caster" when most of us are discussing 'melee' vs 'not melee'.

Otherwise, casters would include ret paladins, enh shamans and dk.

Cleave - A World of Warcraft Arena composition that consists of the "stacking" of physical damage based classes and whose techniques and strategies are inmensely complicated and often compared to Einstein's Theory of Relativity - It was invented in BG5 more specifically in this channel

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Q u o t e:
It's hard to keep Internet jargon constrained. A lot of players are using melee and cleave as synonyms, which I agree isn't a very precise definition. I'll probably just avoid using the term from now on.

Regardless, we do think certain types of melee are too well represented especially in the 2s bracket. We don't think this is a fundamental flaw with how casting works. We just think the caster escape mechanisms can't trump the melee closing mechanisms, which they need to sometimes.

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Good luck finding that perfect balancing point between kiting being effective enough, but not too effective.

I will submit to you that since each class can have wild variance in their abilty to hold range, that you will never find this mythical balance point.

It might be more constructive to simply assume that most PvP is fought at melee range, and the only advantage of ranged DPS is the ability to target swap at will (as opposed to waiting for a charge/deathgrip/repentance/shadowstep cooldown).

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Q u o t e:
It's hard to keep Internet jargon constrained. A lot of players are using melee and cleave as synonyms, which I agree isn't a very precise definition. I'll probably just avoid using the term from now on.

Regardless, we do think certain types of melee are too well represented especially in the 2s bracket. We don't think this is a fundamental flaw with how casting works. We just think the caster escape mechanisms can't trump the melee closing mechanisms, which they need to sometimes.

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It's not just melee being too strong, since feral druids aren't that strong right now. There is still definitely a flaw with the way some casting works, for instance the moonkin mechanics are pretty much set up to be doomed.

I went over spell lockout and how it effects moonkin druids in PvP today in my blog:
http://restokin.com/?p=1221

there are other things wrong with moonkin PvP that I'm getting into for tomorrow's blog post. There's pretty much no way to stop the melee train, which comes armed with stuns & ways to lock down casters. There isn't enough ways for casters to escape, and casters are just sitting ducks any time they get counter-spelled with any type of anti-casting mechanic. You can't silence melee from being able to smash your face in, but you can silence & counterspell casters all day long....

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Q u o t e:
It's hard to keep Internet jargon constrained. A lot of players are using melee and cleave as synonyms, which I agree isn't a very precise definition. I'll probably just avoid using the term from now on.

Regardless, we do think certain types of melee are too well represented especially in the 2s bracket. We don't think this is a fundamental flaw with how casting works. We just think the caster escape mechanisms can't trump the melee closing mechanisms, which they need to sometimes.

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<3

This is twice today you've made comments regarding PVP (the earlier one regarding Hand of Freedom/cleanses) which give me hope.

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Q u o t e:


Nerf Juggernaut.

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And watch warriors drop in representation back to season 5 levels immediately.

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Q u o t e:
It's hard to keep Internet jargon constrained. A lot of players are using melee and cleave as synonyms, which I agree isn't a very precise definition. I'll probably just avoid using the term from now on.

Regardless, we do think certain types of melee are too well represented especially in the 2s bracket. We don't think this is a fundamental flaw with how casting works. We just think the caster escape mechanisms can't trump the melee closing mechanisms, which they need to sometimes.

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I think it is a flaw with how casting works -- its too GCD dependent (compared to melee) and is way too easy to disrupt. I can get a warrior for 5700 hp while his partner sits in 3 seconds of sheep and not kill him because of interrupts. Any melee would have killed the warrior from 3 seconds of CC in that duration, but most casters would not have.