The last thread on this subject got locked by GC because it was insulting the developers, even though I thought it had a lot of good points in it, and obviously others did too. So please refrain from insulting the devs in this thread, and just talk about the issues. And maybe then we'll get some change, or at least a satisfying answer, for the very real itemization problems currently in the game.

1) In general, itemization is causing a number of classes/specs to be unhappy with the stat allocations on their gear, to the point that many don't consider Ulduar gear upgrades from Naxx gear, and this is borne out in theorycraft and practice. We've seen a number of attempts to explain this (gotta give GC credit for not being entirely silent!), but they boil down to "we want gearing to be a game: we want you to have to choose between different pieces of gear and decide which one is better for you, rather than just having every piece be an obvious and perfectly-itemized upgrade". This concept is fair. The problem is...

2) The choice doesn't exist. Just off the top of my head, I can tell you that: there are a number of slots where there is no spellpower plate option without a heaping helping of MP5. There is no 2-hander in Ulduar 10 without either hit or armor pen on it, and I think that's also true for 25-man. My DK has only 2 plate dps helms to choose from in ULD10, and their stats are nearly identical amounts of crit and ARMOR PEN. There is literally NO plate dps belt in Ulduar 10. Not one. There are many slots with no attractive options for moonkin or elemental shaman. I'm just touching the tip of the iceberg here.

Where is the "choice" they want us to make? Options aren't being offered. I put it to the community: do you know the answer?

3) And the key question: How come so many pieces are itemized poorly for the specs that would use them? How come a well-itemized piece (I'm not talking perfectly itemized, just well) is so rare? I'm sure the devs understand the game, but the pieces really look like the people who designed them just put them together willy-nilly without knowing anything about what the classes in question actually wants. I know that's not what you did. I assume the devs are smart and know what they are doing. So what's the rationale for itemizing this way? What's with all the armor pen, and the mp5 on spell plate, and the weird shaman itemization, and all that stamina on every piece of plate, etc? Anybody know?

4) Drop rates: Plate spellpower gear can only be used by one spec of one class. How come it has the same chance to drop as anything else? And how come there are so many pieces of it when there aren't - oh I don't know - any plate dps belts? Shouldn't there just be more mail offset pieces that pallies can pick up as well? In my opinion, the best solution for this would be to take spellpower plate (non set) pieces, and instead of putting them ont he regular loot table, allow them to drop as an extra "bonus". For instance, a 10-man boss would always drop 2 items off its normal loot table, but then would also have a 20% chance to drop a bonus spellpower plate item. The technology for this is in the game, it was used, for instance, for Wargliaves. Problem solved. They could even do this with other limited-interest items, such as sigils/relics. That's multiple problems solved in one fell swoop!

5) Plate vs Leather: obviously I don't have the inside knowledge of the inner workings of the game the devs have. But it seems like the easiest solution to warriors wanting leather pieces is to do what you've already done with DKs: make strength so overwhelmingly appealing that they prefer plate even if it's a 3-stat piece compared to 4-stat leather. Modify deep arms and fury talents to scale with strength, or add "this talent also increases your strength by 1% per point" to a number of talents. Why wouldn't this solve the problem?


I would really like to know what's up with the itemization. I think that getting new gear is supposed to be fun. So rarely seeing any gear that is actually appealing takes a lot of the fun out of it.

Please respond without insulting the devs or "QQ"ing about them personally. Do others think this is a problem? Have you identified any good workarounds? For my part, I'm trying to get some runed orbs to make a belt, since none drop in Uld 10. Not really feasible until they become more common, though. Will have Uld cleared many times over long before I can craft an upgrade.

Heres my beef with itemization.

hardmodes should be worth more than 7 god damn pitiful ilevels.

Thank you.

The hard cap on arp means, they either need to scale more warrior talents to str, to make up for inferior plate itemization, or they need to remove the cap and make it scale linearly so they can place a 4th stat on plate to make us want it.

I do not see a resolution to the warrior part of this equation without major class changes in future or them un capping ArP and making it scale linearly.

Other wise it will be itemized as badly as it currently is for warriors.

Hi there! I'm a boomkin and I see the problem with Balance Druid itemization. Our T8.5 set is not considered as an upgrade from T7.5. There is NO single leather belt/wrists/boots item in whole Ulduar w/o tons of spirit on it (wich is next to useless after Str and Agil). Our choice is "get +50 crit on boots and +50 haste on belt, or vise versa? " because all other stats are same.

I would like to know why mage T8.5 seems to have been made solely with fire specs in mind. The 4 set is mathematically a dps loss for both Frost and Arcane.

arp and haste don't do enough for hunters. is there any hope in them affecting the 50% of our damage that isn't steady shot/auto shot?

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Q u o t e:
"I don't like regen stats."
The solution here, from our POV, is not to take the regen stats off of gear, but to get you to care about them. To us, that's the same argument as saying "I can get all of the hit I need through talents, so hit on gear is a waste for me. Please remove it."

"I'd rather wear leather than dps plate."
I addressed this recently. The root of the problem is that putting AP + Strength on plate feel dumb (because except for block, it's the same thing). Putting Agi + Strength on plate feels useless. A long-term solution would probably be something like letting rogues (and similar classes) derive AP from 2xAgility and just put Agi on leather and Strength on plate.

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This would be a significant nerf to rogues. A massive part of why leather is so good is that the ilvl is split between 4 dps stats instead of 3. Plate is punished because there are only 3 stats you can do and the ilvl formula is supposed to push away from stat stacking instead of towards it. Thus leather pieces are much better overall because of the wider spread. That is why leather is good. That is why plate is bad. Adding a 4th dps stat to plate would be much better than just nerfing leather.

Paladins benefiting from incoming mana will hopefully be addressed in the next pally update. Ie, a mana dump, inefficient or otherwise.

Of course, you see pallys to this day that are stunned by the concept that they might be expected to drink in pvp.

My beef with itemization is that my gear is COVERED in a garbage stat after a very low level

We're in the same boat. A great deal of Ulduar gear could best be described as a side grade. The loot options from 10man algalon are also a bit disappointing and hopefully 25m has similar gear, or it's going to suck having to run both 10 and 25man raids for BiS when I was under the impression Blizzard wasn't going to do this?

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Q u o t e:
Of course, you see pallys to this day that are stunned by the concept that they might be expected to drink in pvp.

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I often do against priest teams.

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Q u o t e:
"I don't like regen stats."
The solution here, from our POV, is not to take the regen stats off of gear, but to get you to care about them. To us, that's the same argument as saying "I can get all of the hit I need through talents, so hit on gear is a waste for me. Please remove it."

"I'd rather wear leather than dps plate."
I addressed this recently. The root of the problem is that putting AP + Strength on plate feel dumb (because except for block, it's the same thing). Putting Agi + Strength on plate feels useless. A long-term solution would probably be something like letting rogues (and similar classes) derive AP from 2xAgility and just put Agi on leather and Strength on plate.

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Yeah uhm....Agi+AP for Rogues works because Agi and AP are VAGUELY close in utility for them, yet different enough to matter.

The second solution reminds me of Hunters Pre-BC...and that was stupid as *%#%. Agi was literally twice as good (or more) as EVERY OTHER STAT EVER.

Why don't you just buff Agi for plate wearers instead?

Or perhaps--just change your itemization to:

Str
Sta
Hit or Crit
ArmorPen or Haste

for plate, similar to how Cloth tends to be a choice betwee crit/spirit and haste/mp5

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Q u o t e:
"I'd rather wear leather than dps plate."
I addressed this recently. The root of the problem is that putting AP + Strength on plate feel dumb (because except for block, it's the same thing). Putting Agi + Strength on plate feels useless. A long-term solution would probably be something like letting rogues (and similar classes) derive AP from 2xAgility and just put Agi on leather and Strength on plate.

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Do you see it as an issue that even now with all the plate that's contained in ulduar 10/25 hard/normal that there are still a few leather pieces that are quite a bit better for me than plate?

The thing about regen stats is they don't work on a damage caster unless they will consistently provide damage.

Otherwise you're balancing our dps around sustainability that can easily fluctuate in need from fight to fight.

Regen works best with warlocks, whose spells may be inefficient but they have a flexible tool they frequently use gcds on to restore mana. Regen stats like spirit and talents like Soul Leach then become valuable because by taking them you're minimizing down-time on those gcds.

But an 8 second evocation channel every two-four minutes doesn't quite work like that.

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Q u o t e:
"I don't like regen stats."
The solution here, from our POV, is not to take the regen stats off of gear, but to get you to care about them. To us, that's the same argument as saying "I can get all of the hit I need through talents, so hit on gear is a waste for me. Please remove it."

"I'd rather wear leather than dps plate."
I addressed this recently. The root of the problem is that putting AP + Strength on plate feel dumb (because except for block, it's the same thing). Putting Agi + Strength on plate feels useless. A long-term solution would probably be something like letting rogues (and similar classes) derive AP from 2xAgility and just put Agi on leather and Strength on plate.

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I'm still waiting for druids to get Attack Power from Agility in BEAR form.

*sniffle*

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Q u o t e:
The thing about regen stats is they don't work on a damage caster unless they will consistently provide damage.

Otherwise you're balancing our dps around sustainability that can easily fluctuate in need from fight to fight.

Regen works best with warlocks, whose spells may be inefficient but they have a flexible tool they frequently use gcds on to restore mana. Regen stats like spirit and talents like Soul Leach then become valuable because by taking them you're minimizing down-time on those gcds.

But an 8 second evocation channel every two-four minutes doesn't quite work like that.

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Why doesn't it? Ignoring how it can be interrupted obviously, a Mage devotes far less time to evocation on any boss encounter then a Warlock would spend time investing in life tap.

Now obviously there are things you can use to argue a Warlock can still do like DOTs, or the Life Tap glyph, but over any given period of time a Mage will have less downtime using Evocation then a Warlock will life tap.

Having more stamina than strength on dps plate isn't helping to pursuade people to choose it over leather either.

My personal issue is with the glaring lack of crit on plate spellpower gear. I don't care about the mp5, but you admit to balance our class around illumination then put zero crit on a LOT of Ulduar gear...crafted pieces included. =(

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Q u o t e:
Why doesn't it? Ignoring how it can be interrupted obviously, a Mage devotes far less time to evocation on any boss encounter then a Warlock would spend time investing in life tap.

Now obviously there are things you can use to argue a Warlock can still do like DOTs, or the Life Tap glyph, but over any given period of time a Mage will have less downtime using Evocation then a Warlock will life tap.

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You answered your own question, because the mage spends far less time evocating. Also consider that you would need a huge sum of regen to offset the need to evocate another time, whereas lifetaps are more easily bumped off.

Mages are balanced around using this ability though, just like warlocks are balanced around lifetap gcds.