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Q u o t e:
Ok, so to be fair to us, what are the goals then? What external factors go into the equation? Since there hasn't been tank parity since Wrath shipped AND it has been the same classes, what goals are keeping it that way and what is the justification?

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To be clear, it's a whole lot closer than it was before Wrath shipped. You Warriors are now on the other side of the fence, but the Paladins have been here the whole time.

As far as relevance to this thread, I think the things have already been addressed from a Paladin perspective. They've already said they're not happy with block, so hopefully we can expect some changes for 3.2 from that. I remember when WotLK was in Beta, and as a Paladin, I assumed that Warriors would always be the best tanks because it seemed like no matter what they did, Warriors were always a step ahead. So in theorycraft and one forums, I always compared our stats to those of Warriors. I remember back when GC had to calm us down explaining that they'd fix block mechanics of they scaled too well for Warriors. That was the belief at the time: that Paladins still weren't as good as Warriors, but it was close enough and they'd fix it should things get out of hand.

Oh, and they've already mentioned that Prot Paladins can expect another cooldown. I'm still a little concerned about the issue of DKs still having higher health, avoidance, and (perhaps then) equal cooldowns. That'll probably bring things closer.

It's still a widely held belief (perhaps justified) that Paladins take more damage than the other tanks. It shouldn't be too tough to check this one... go to WWS and view General Vezax kills. How many are tanked by Paladins? How about Deconstructor on Hard Mode? Even Malygos? Any time there's one tank needed, that tank isn't a Paladin. My guild has done General Vezax in Ulduar25, but when I lead Ulduar10, I often get, "Are you sure you can tank General?" Even in Ulduar25 when we were having trouble with the kiting, someone says, "Couldn't Modus do it? Don't Paladins have +15% speed from talents?" "No, he'd get obliterated," someone replied. I'm just as geared as he is. The belief is that Paladins take more damage.

What am I supposed to say? I could probably make a small scene and get a few tries tanking him, but what would that do for me? It would take only one or two deaths (even if they weren't my fault) before their suspicions were confirmed and I'd be back on the "tanking bench." If our DK was dying, then I sure would be. Besides, Hand of Sacrifice and Divine Sacrifice make me much better suited as an Offtank anyway.

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Q u o t e:
I say fall further because earlier in the line (again, that reading thing) I put forth the fact that without a stronger IBF the slight health (or avoidance) and mitigation leads will no longer make up for the ability to block sizable portions of post-mitigation damage. If it was enough to make that up, they wouldn't have given Druids a block mechanic.

Once IBF goes to 2 minutes, DKs will be behind. Bolded so you might see it this time.

Then when block is fixed to be "where the Devs feel it should be", DKs will fall further behind.

Do you understand where I'm at in the argument? You might see it a bit further down the road you're standing in. Past the sign that says DKs are too powerful. Past the signs pointing to IBF. Down near the exit sign that reads "No more #1 tank" that all the DKs are going to be replacing Warriors at. Get it? Or do I need to start using different color crayons? 'Cause if you read what I typed, you'd see that I'm not saying DKs are fine. I'm not saying DKs are weak. I'm saying when the changes to tanking go through, DKs will be out in the cold, and the Warriors and Paladins that are QQing about imbalance now, you can bet won't be complaining about it when they are the ones on top. Even with all the DKs that are (rightly) agreeing that IBF is too much.

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What you're saying is that DKs will no longer be the #1 tank choice by default. You don't have to get all personal with it.. relax and take a breath. You are also making assumptions that this future change to the block mechanics will be the great equalizer. While this may be possible, I'm gonna say based on the nerf/buff cycle up to this point in the expansion that Blizzard is in no hurry to put DKs out in the cold.

All you're doing is looking down the road, past those signs, and in the blurry distance seeing a hypothetical point where DKs may be in the situation that the other tanks are finding themselves in now. No longer the clearcut choice for tanking most everything.

Thanks for the response GC, that does help answer some questions. It also raises one in my mind. If you aren't concerned with the theorycrafted numbers and you aren't interested in personal anecdotes about tanks getting replaced because their class is inferior, what kind of feedback from the tanking community would you find useful?

But... Even if block were to give the exact same mitigation as DK armor, it wouldn't be a 100% chance so it can't be counted on. Block would then need to be buffed to be BETTER than armor to make the chance difference, but then paladins would pull ahead because they DO block 100% of attacks.

Have you considered giving all DKs "block" through a revamped Unbreakable Armor mechanic? You could even keep the name. Seems like it'd make balancing a lot easier, while still keeping the flavor for the class. Not to mention you could give frost a REAL cooldown.

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Q u o t e:
Are you refering to the part where warrior tanks were kept alive by casting an anti-druid aura over the whole raid?

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I hate to break your heart GC, but feral druids were a more optimal tank for pretty much every sunwell boss. In fact, we even had a prot paladin main tank on probably half of our first Sunwell kills. Tank balance in TBC was significantly more fun and exciting than it is now. This "every class every role" thing just isnt any fun, especially when certain classes are just straight up better across the board at all of it.

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Q u o t e:
Just remember that one player's "slight advantage" is another's "faceroll tanking and trivializing encounters." The balance goal has always been "close enough" not "identical."

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Thats a nice enough thought, but at the same time when its your FotM class that is head and shoulders above everyone else (for 2 entire content sets,) It tends to irritate your community somewhat.

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Q u o t e:


Are you refering to the part where warrior tanks were kept alive by casting an anti-druid aura over the whole raid? Or the part where you stacked shamans for Chain Heal and Heroism rotations? Or where the mages were bumped to make room for more warlocks to benefit from Curse of Shadows? Or where paladins were parked outside to buff everyone in between wipes? :)

Players who liked Sunwell generally liked it because it was hard, not because the class balance was so exceptional. Mimiron's big red button is hard if that's your thing. Algalon is hard.

A lot of the tank balance problems we are having exist because we thought block would be a better mitigation stat than it has turned out to be. I say "we" because the druids and DKs were also convinced at the time that they would be mana-sponges and everyone was quoting "The unblocked hit is the new crushing blow."

For a variety of reasons, reality didn't work out that way. For one, we underestimated how much removing crushing blows would change the landscape. In fact, you can argue that the big magic hits (the dragon breaths and plasma blasts) are really the new crushing blows, and block does nothing to them (modulo 4 piece bonuses and the like). DKs were given amazing cooldowns, high armor and high avoidance to make up for them not being able to block. Druids were given even higher armor and high health. We backed druids off from that a little in part because they were going to end up with dps stats almost no matter what gear they chose so we wanted to incorporate those a little more into tanking. We kept buffing DKs based on early (mostly heroic dungeon) reports that healers hated healing DKs because they were so squishy when their cooldowns were blown. That seems to be less of an issue now with current levels of gear and some of the other changes to the game since then.

We will almost certainly change block. I can't tell you when we'll change it, because it's a big change. We probably don't want shield-users to be at 100% up time of block if they block more per hit. We have to be careful what happens to threat since that's a big part of block, especially for warriors. Heck, maybe we fall in love with the 4 piece warrior bonus and decide to make that a core part of the ability.

We might very well nerf DK mitigation or cooldowns again. We're less worried about druids, but if we nerfed DKs it might be that druids take their place. We are less likely to just buff the shield-using tanks because we like the current difficulty of the hardmode fights for them and we are reluctant to have to buff those encounters to correspond for a tank buff. Though as we've said elsewhere, we might give paladins another cooldown.

Just remember that one player's "slight advantage" is another's "faceroll tanking and trivializing encounters." The balance goal has always been "close enough" not "identical."

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Personally I wish you'd nerf all of these life-saving cooldowns across the board, they went from being "Oh geez, there's a chance I might die, I better use my get of our jail free card and hope it doesn't happen again." to "Oh geez, incoming huge spike damage, better burn CD #1, oh geez, here it comes again, CD #2, oh geez, another, CD #3, oh yay, CD #1 is ready again, we're good."

Tanking has kind of gone from situational awareness, threat, and positioning to "Does the tank/raid have enough cooldowns to survive through whatever ridiculous damage the devs throw at them." The worst examples of this are like Thorim & Iron Council Hard modes where it seems like you're flip flopping between your tanks and their cooldowns.

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Q u o t e:
But... Even if block were to give the exact same mitigation as DK armor, it wouldn't be a 100% chance so it can't be counted on. Block would then need to be buffed to be BETTER than armor to make the chance difference, but then paladins would pull ahead because they DO block 100% of attacks.

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There are only two classes that block. You could really easily get them equal through talents, just by tweaking some of the numbers (through Redoubt, Shield Specialization and Critical Block).

That way a Paladin, who can block every hit, would take roughly equal damage to a DK/Druid tank and a Warrior, who can't block every hit, will take roughly the same amount (though it would be spikier).

I dont think the problem is DKs by them selves. its that CDs can be used to cheese certain aspects of an encounter look at using CDs to stop kitting general. Its not the intended way to do it the encounter but CDs on the tank allow it. Now DKs are a problem because they are more self sufficient then any other tank. They do have 2 CDs that are base and then depending on spec pick up 2 more. That to me is the broken aspect of DKs is that they pick up so many CDs from there talents. Where as all the other tanks pick up 1 in their respective trees and usually only have one base CD.

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Q u o t e:

We will almost certainly change block. I can't tell you when we'll change it, because it's a big change. We probably don't want shield-users to be at 100% up time of block if they block more per hit. We have to be careful what happens to threat since that's a big part of block, especially for warriors. Heck, maybe we fall in love with the 4 piece warrior bonus and decide to make that a core part of the ability.

We might very well nerf DK mitigation or cooldowns again. We're less worried about druids, but if we nerfed DKs it might be that druids take their place. We are less likely to just buff the shield-using tanks because we like the current difficulty of the hardmode fights for them and we are reluctant to have to buff those encounters to correspond for a tank buff. Though as we've said elsewhere, we might give paladins another cooldown.

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I believe I need another cooldown, as a Paladin, particularly due to the nature of certain aspects of these fights. Based on my healers opinions, of which should be a fantastically useful resource for any tank, we've concluded that I am one of the harder tanks to heal compared to our Death Knight and Druid tank because...

A. I have few cooldowns and few ways to increase my survivability for short periods.
B. My specific flavour of block is weak.

What I mean by A is that I cannot weave mitigation cooldowns throughout a fight without severely limiting my capabilities later on in the fight. I've been given a FANTASTIC tool in the form of Divine Sacrifice, however, if I intend to use it, it often times requires Divine Shield, which locks me out of Divine Protection. (note: the next ability we get must be devoid of the word divine.)

Saving a cooldown for a part of a fight you know you'll need it sounds like a viable tool and an interesting mechanic to play around. We cannot do this because we have but one tool for survival, and it is tied to raid survival as well. Often times the fights that require a personal cooldown also have large amounts of potential AoE damage that could be mitigated through Divine Sacrifice. Spells like ALL dragon breaths, Mim's Plasma Blast, Steelbreaker hard mode (with him being the last killed), and several other encounters make waiting for the right phase of the fight more of a frustrating mechanic than anything strategic or intuitive.

What I mean by B is that block, as has been mentioned before, is somewhat weak. Its static, but Paladin block value is the most static of all. Consider for a moment Critical Block. Warriors are capable of critting a block, absorbing 30% more damage on that attack. This will NEVER be guaranteed, but it does allow it to be less static. The downside is that they cannot block all attacks, like Paladins can, therefore taking the full brunt of a blow, with less passive mitigation, is dangerous. We can debate the pros and cons later ;)

Shield Block is another example, but instead can be CONTROLLED by the player. Paladins, again, don't do this. We cannot. To be fair, Paladins can guarantee they will always block an attack that was otherwise not avoided. However, due to the current state of block, it is unlikely that most Paladins gear with any block gear and instead focus on avoidance, just as a Warrior would. This means block value is static AND lower than what could be attained otherwise. Nearly all resources suggest gearing with avoidance as it has, through simulation, proven to be the stronger of the two gear style.

We can however tank 10,000 weak as hell mobs and never die. This is arguably worthless depending on your viewpoint. As a raiding guild, we like to kill bosses, and sadly, Paladin block does little for helping this out. Coupled with a lack of survival cooldowns, I believe both of these things make the Paladin a weaker class to tank with, even though the Paladin has higher static mitigation than a Warrior.

Higher static mitigation is not a substitute for skill based controlled mitigation, it is however a weak younger brother with asthma.

Also, if you change block, its basically guaranteed that you'd need to change every ability that relies on block, every talent that scales block, and every piece of gear that has block on it. After all, if you're to allow tanks to Block for more, then Shield of Righteousness, Shield Slam, and Damage Shield would all need to be toned down to reflect the changes. Shield Block and Holy Shield will also need to be tuned. Shield block rating, with it being so cheap, would need to be modified, and block value on gear would need to be changed as well.

GC, let me for a moment comment on something you mentioned in the itemization thread. Str, you felt, was too similar to AP because they increased the same thing. Agility, on the other hand, increases crit AND AP, and thus having both stats on a piece of gear is an okay thing to do.

I believe block value and strength are the same as your strength vs. ap comments. They both can increase the same stat, and they both can increase your threat. Perhaps it'd be a better tool to simply ignore the block value stat all together and derive the total amount of available block value DIRECTLY from strength. This would easily allow several pieces of tank gear to be retuned or outright removed and increase item homogenization.

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Q u o t e:


Are you refering to the part where warrior tanks were kept alive by casting an anti-druid aura over the whole raid? Or the part where you stacked shamans for Chain Heal and Heroism rotations? Or where the mages were bumped to make room for more warlocks to benefit from Curse of Shadows? Or where paladins were parked outside to buff everyone in between wipes? :)

Players who liked Sunwell generally liked it because it was hard, not because the class balance was so exceptional. Mimiron's big red button is hard if that's your thing. Algalon is hard.

A lot of the tank balance problems we are having exist because we thought block would be a better mitigation stat than it has turned out to be. I say "we" because the druids and DKs were also convinced at the time that they would be mana-sponges and everyone was quoting "The unblocked hit is the new crushing blow."

For a variety of reasons, reality didn't work out that way. For one, we underestimated how much removing crushing blows would change the landscape. In fact, you can argue that the big magic hits (the dragon breaths and plasma blasts) are really the new crushing blows, and block does nothing to them (modulo 4 piece bonuses and the like). DKs were given amazing cooldowns, high armor and high avoidance to make up for them not being able to block. Druids were given even higher armor and high health. We backed druids off from that a little in part because they were going to end up with dps stats almost no matter what gear they chose so we wanted to incorporate those a little more into tanking. We kept buffing DKs based on early (mostly heroic dungeon) reports that healers hated healing DKs because they were so squishy when their cooldowns were blown. That seems to be less of an issue now with current levels of gear and some of the other changes to the game since then.

We will almost certainly change block. I can't tell you when we'll change it, because it's a big change. We probably don't want shield-users to be at 100% up time of block if they block more per hit. We have to be careful what happens to threat since that's a big part of block, especially for warriors. Heck, maybe we fall in love with the 4 piece warrior bonus and decide to make that a core part of the ability.

We might very well nerf DK mitigation or cooldowns again. We're less worried about druids, but if we nerfed DKs it might be that druids take their place. We are less likely to just buff the shield-using tanks because we like the current difficulty of the hardmode fights for them and we are reluctant to have to buff those encounters to correspond for a tank buff. Though as we've said elsewhere, we might give paladins another cooldown.

Just remember that one player's "slight advantage" is another's "faceroll tanking and trivializing encounters." The balance goal has always been "close enough" not "identical."

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To me, this translates to the following:

"Warriors and Paladins are inferior tanks. Unfortunately, you'll be waiting a long time to become equally viable tanks. In the meantime, suck it up."

When your class suffers from such critical problems and the only fix is coming long-term, it's extremely frustrating.

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Q u o t e:

There are only two classes that block. You could really easily get them equal through talents, just by tweaking some of the numbers (through Redoubt, Shield Specialization and Critical Block).

That way a Paladin, who can block every hit, would take roughly equal damage to a DK/Druid tank and a Warrior, who can't block every hit, will take roughly the same amount (though it would be spikier).

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This is the problem with block currently. Sure you can balance the over time damage taken, but warriors will take more damage when the RNG fails them. That is not something you want to happen to your MT at the same time a boss does some spike damage. It leads to tank gibs, especially now that warriors also have the lowest total HP. Block needs more than just an increase in how much is blocked it needs to be re-worked for both warriors and paladins.

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Q u o t e:


Are you refering to the part where warrior tanks were kept alive by casting an anti-druid aura over the whole raid? Or the part where you stacked shamans for Chain Heal and Heroism rotations? Or where the mages were bumped to make room for more warlocks to benefit from Curse of Shadows? Or where paladins were parked outside to buff everyone in between wipes? :)

Players who liked Sunwell generally liked it because it was hard, not because the class balance was so exceptional. Mimiron's big red button is hard if that's your thing. Algalon is hard.

A lot of the tank balance problems we are having exist because we thought block would be a better mitigation stat than it has turned out to be. I say "we" because the druids and DKs were also convinced at the time that they would be mana-sponges and everyone was quoting "The unblocked hit is the new crushing blow."

For a variety of reasons, reality didn't work out that way. For one, we underestimated how much removing crushing blows would change the landscape. In fact, you can argue that the big magic hits (the dragon breaths and plasma blasts) are really the new crushing blows, and block does nothing to them (modulo 4 piece bonuses and the like). DKs were given amazing cooldowns, high armor and high avoidance to make up for them not being able to block. Druids were given even higher armor and high health. We backed druids off from that a little in part because they were going to end up with dps stats almost no matter what gear they chose so we wanted to incorporate those a little more into tanking. We kept buffing DKs based on early (mostly heroic dungeon) reports that healers hated healing DKs because they were so squishy when their cooldowns were blown. That seems to be less of an issue now with current levels of gear and some of the other changes to the game since then.

We will almost certainly change block. I can't tell you when we'll change it, because it's a big change. We probably don't want shield-users to be at 100% up time of block if they block more per hit. We have to be careful what happens to threat since that's a big part of block, especially for warriors. Heck, maybe we fall in love with the 4 piece warrior bonus and decide to make that a core part of the ability.

We might very well nerf DK mitigation or cooldowns again. We're less worried about druids, but if we nerfed DKs it might be that druids take their place. We are less likely to just buff the shield-using tanks because we like the current difficulty of the hardmode fights for them and we are reluctant to have to buff those encounters to correspond for a tank buff. Though as we've said elsewhere, we might give paladins another cooldown.

Just remember that one player's "slight advantage" is another's "faceroll tanking and trivializing encounters." The balance goal has always been "close enough" not "identical."

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Correct me if i am reading this wrong, please, but it seems that block is going to get a change in the distant future that is not likely to be the next content patch and paladins are likely to get another cooldown. Where is the warrior love? I know we are 'able' to tank the harder encounters but it seems from my personal play as well as others on the boards that the class is lacking in other areas outside of just the block mechanic. We have lower health, lower armor, weaker cooldowns and lower dps. It would be awesome to feel superior in some aspect of this class compared to the other tanks, right now it just feels like we arent. So with all the talk of the other tanking classes out of the way, what can the warrior tanks look forward to in the future?

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Q u o t e:
Are you refering to the part where warrior tanks were kept alive by casting an anti-druid aura over the whole raid? Or the part where you stacked shamans for Chain Heal and Heroism rotations? Or where the mages were bumped to make room for more warlocks to benefit from Curse of Shadows? Or where paladins were parked outside to buff everyone in between wipes? :)

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Yes. All of it. How tightly you tune encounters is constrained by your ability to balance classes. If you're in this forum trying to manage expectations on how close you can get class balance, it would be nice to know you're aware that that has a direct impact on encounter tuning.

The importance of getting classes balanced is contextual. And that context is how tightly you tune encounters. The more tightly you try to tune encounters, the more pressure that puts on class imbalances. That's the lesson of Sunwell, isn't it? I'm just looking for an assurance that that lesson was actually learned.

I actually think we might be in agreement.

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Q u o t e:
A lot of the tank balance problems we are having exist because we thought block would be a better mitigation stat than it has turned out to be. I say "we" because the druids and DKs were also convinced at the time that they would be mana-sponges and everyone was quoting "The unblocked hit is the new crushing blow."

For a variety of reasons, reality didn't work out that way.

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No offense, but you (not you personally, of course) really should have known better. This is the kind of stuff you can work out through basic arithmetic or simulations. These are the kinds of abilities and tools it's not unreasonable for us to expect you to have. Maybe this is a result of it being Blizzard's first time making a MMO. But next time you'll want better tools for predicting these kinds of things.

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Q u o t e:
We will almost certainly change block. I can't tell you when we'll change it, because it's a big change. We probably don't want shield-users to be at 100% up time of block if they block more per hit.

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Good, because that's effective health. And that's one lesson it's pretty clear you've learned.

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Q u o t e:
Heck, maybe we fall in love with the 4 piece warrior bonus and decide to make that a core part of the ability.

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I think one of the lessons you should learn from your experience balancing druid tanks is that you should avoid, as much as possible, balancing a class based on gear. Making it a core ability is the way to go.

At this point, all I'm trying to figure out is whether the designers are learning from mistakes made in the past. I think you are, but it's helpful to see designers own up to the mistakes and actually indicate what they've learned from them.

I'm not owed it. It's not part of your job. But I suspect it would make one segment of the complaining population happier to see that kind of thing.

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Q u o t e:


To me, this translates to the following:

"Warriors and Paladins are inferior tanks. Unfortunately, you'll be waiting a long time to become equally viable tanks. In the meantime, suck it up."

When your class suffers from such critical problems and the only fix is coming long-term, it's extremely frustrating.

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That's pretty much exactly what I read.

"We know there's a problem but, too bad it won't be fixed until next expansion. Better reroll now"

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Q u o t e:


This is the problem with block currently. Sure you can balance the over time damage taken, but warriors will take more damage when the RNG fails them. That is not something you want to happen to your MT at the same time a boss does some spike damage. It leads to tank gibs, especially now that warriors also have the lowest total HP. Block needs more than just an increase in how much is blocked it needs to be re-worked for both warriors and paladins.

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The funny part of this is- That my paladin takes more damage every time even with blocks than our Warrior tank. Also, since when have Warriors had the lowest HP of all the tanks? Every warrior/druid/dk I've came across has had more HP than myself and thats with the same level of gear, gemming for stam. The thing that makes me come close is using the Dragon's Eyes. That only makes up for the stam I lose on not having a ranged weapon, Health increase from Bear/Frost Presence.

The thing is Paladins have and always will it seems have the lowest amount of health. As for blocking, I have my mitigation set at like 107% just because of different pieces and not really trying and I still take bigger dips of life than our warrior.

Since I also have better aoe tanking abilities I'm always seen as the better tank during the fights in Ulduar so far. I have to do all the little adds during Razorscale and occupy them if any are up when she's on the ground and being kited. Deconstructor I'm always having to grab the pummelers and the bots just because I can aoe more than a warrior and help get them down. Kologarn I have to do the elementals because warriors can't get all 4 quick enough for aoe to start going, plus they have higher HP that they can survive longer in that fight for whatever reasons. Auiraya I have to do all the adds for the fight that I build threat instantaneously. So unfortunately for me I'm forced to add duty in every Ulduar boss fight because of that. Its not by the guilds choice either, its by my own (Since I'm raid leader and such) because I want to get the fight done with little errors so I get stuck on the junk to make life easier on everyone.

Naxx there was no issue with me main tanking, but seems in Ulduar any time I try its just a disaster fest. It also doesn't help having high block in that fight because every hit is a block but you still take 15-20k damage instead of not blocking but mitigating more.

Normally I would think its something I'm doing, but a vast majority of the guilds I've talked to on the servers said that they don't really have Paladins main tank anymore and have to go with the other three classes and use their Paladin tank to do adds. Maybe I'm missing something here Blizzard, but from random polling like that I kind of see how its even on tanks ends, but maybe its that random polling and there's something missing that we aren't seeing. Sure when we get our other cooldown it might make life easier, but doesn't change the fight that we'll always been seen as trash tankers.

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Q u o t e:
Also, since when have Warriors had the lowest HP of all the tanks? Every warrior/druid/dk I've came across has had more HP than myself and thats with the same level of gear, gemming for stam. The thing that makes me come close is using the Dragon's Eyes. That only makes up for the stam I lose on not having a ranged weapon, Health increase from Bear/Frost Presence.

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Hello I'd like to point you to the numbers that have been posted and reposted a dozen times in this thread you're welcome

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=16474246404&sid=1


DK
Health: 50740 (52973 - Blood)

Warrior
Health: 48218

Paladin
Health: 48981

Druid
Health: 51294

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Q u o t e:

DK
Health: 50740 (52973 - Blood)

Warrior
Health: 48218

Paladin
Health: 48981

Druid
Health: 51294

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Ok -- So where exactly are these numbers being based on exactly? In game characters, a stat site? Also that is strictly relying on the fact that every DK, Druid, Warrior and Paladin are miners. Which generally they aren't. Most tanks usually pick up BS/JC it seems like lately. Because they think its better for them to tank. Which I got fortunate during BC when I first started my pally did BS/JC and enjoyed the buff to it, but seeing it now more as a joke because everyone thinks they need free sockets and Dragon's Eyes.

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Q u o t e:


Ok -- So where exactly are these numbers coming from? Also that is strictly relying on the fact that every DK, Druid, Warrior and Paladin are miners. Which generally they aren't. Most tanks usually pick up BS/JC it seems like lately. Because they think its better for them to tank. Which I got fortunate during BC when I first started my pally did BS/JC and enjoyed the buff to it, but seeing it now more as a joke because everyone thinks they need free sockets and Dragon's Eyes.

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Read the thread, it's all the same gear and enchants. Also, it doesn't matter if most tanks are BS/JC. In terms of stamina, JC/mining is the BEST. If those numbers reflected real world situations, I doubt that DK would EVER get Vold'rethar. That's not what these numbers are about.