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Q u o t e:
The problem with having it require Frost Presence is that it destroys the ability for PVP (Where the devs intend to have it be an anti-stun ability) by adding an additional rune cost (Takes a Frost rune to change to Frost Presence to use this ability).

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Imo, move the anti-stun someplace else. Like Lichborne.

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Q u o t e:
IMO make block scale better, and PLEASE give warrior tanks more rage gen...... only fight I feel useful on is auriaya. pally tanks have infinite mana on boss fights, i'm not asking for infinite rage but please give us some more on slower hitting bosses. Vezax and Mimiron PH1 are nearly impossible for me to hold threat i'm constantly rage starved with DPS right on my ass.

Also can warrior tanks get some love on aoe threat...... I don't know maybe have a deep prot talent increase the number of targets hit by cleave and increase the threat caused by cleave. Trying to pic up multiple trash mobs as a warrior sucks, I get my mobs to me TC every CD and cleaving and my druid counter part next to me has no problem ripping them right off...... please help

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About your block comment, if they just made block worth gearing for, it would solve our rage problems as well. If we had less raw avoidance and much more block (because we would be gearing for it), we would have a much more steady flow of rage and take more consistent damage.

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Q u o t e:
And thank you for proving my point that DK's have no shame in admitting they are carried by their class and faceroll to victory. Point well taken Communism.

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He is one of the most tanking educated posters on this forum, stop taking out your inferiority complex anger on him.

I want them to nerf warriors to the point where they are almost unviable, simply so idiots like you stop playing one. (and then buff them back, and mabey fix block)

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Q u o t e:
Imo, move the anti-stun someplace else. Like Lichborne.

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That wouldn't be a bad idea, save that the IBF stun immunity is one of the things they balance DK's around as a core ability in all aspects of the game. How about instead of nerfing a core ability for a single facet of the game, they simply buff classes that are affected with talents that designed for that particular facet?

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Q u o t e:


He is one of the most tanking educated posters on this forum, stop taking out your inferiority complex anger on him.

I want them to nerf warriors to the point where they are almost unviable, simply so idiots like you stop playing one. (and then buff them back, and mabey fix block)




That wouldn't be a bad idea, save that the IBF stun immunity is one of the things they balance DK's around as a core ability in all aspects of the game. How about instead of nerfing a core ability for a single facet of the game, they simply buff classes that are affected with talents that designed for that particular facet?

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I find it funny when you flame shig, because he used to tank naxx40 on toon. He is farm from incompetent.

Just remove block, give shields armor to scale, and call it a day. (Obviously have to change revenge and things.)

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Q u o t e:


He is one of the most tanking educated posters on this forum, stop taking out your inferiority complex anger on him.

I want them to nerf warriors to the point where they are almost unviable, simply so idiots like you stop playing one. (and then buff them back, and mabey fix block)




That wouldn't be a bad idea, save that the IBF stun immunity is one of the things they balance DK's around as a core ability in all aspects of the game. How about instead of nerfing a core ability for a single facet of the game, they simply buff classes that are affected with talents that designed for that particular facet?

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He is one of the most tanking educated posters. Got it.

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Q u o t e:
You know, those encounter designers are right across the hall here. I am waving at them right now. We all work pretty closely together to match the boss abilities to class abilities. We work even closer together on the numbers. When someone is tuning Frozen Blows or Imbalancing Strike, they do that knowing what the stam pools, mitigation, avoidance and cooldowns are of appropriately geared tanks.

That's not to say boss design is irrelevant. Say for example we made a raid with one boss, like Eye of Eternity. Now say Feral druids were slightly better at that fight. Does that mean druids are overpowered for that encounter?

There are 14 Ulduar bosses. If DKs are better at tanking 5 of those does that mean DKs are overpowered? If the next tier of content has bosses that druids are better at tanking, does that make things equal?

We want them to all be close ideally. Since we don't want to give every tank the exact same stats and gear they are never going to be 100% equal. The trick is discovering how much of a delta is too much (and it's an answer that's hard to generate with math alone).

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Q u o t e:
Imbalancing Strike

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Q u o t e:
Imbalancing

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I lol'd

In my own personal experience (I raid with a prot paladin who almost always MTs and 2 prot warriors) the only area where I have found a slight advantage is Mmiron and Vezax. Everything else doesn't seem like such a big difference to matter.

EDIT: Woot first and mwhaha beat ya Commie!

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Q u o t e:

Imbalancing Strike

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Freudian slip imo

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Q u o t e:
You know, those encounter designers are right across the hall here. I am waving at them right now. We all work pretty closely together to match the boss abilities to class abilities. We work even closer together on the numbers. When someone is tuning Frozen Blows or Imbalancing Strike, they do that knowing what the stam pools, mitigation, avoidance and cooldowns are of appropriately geared tanks.

That's not to say boss design is irrelevant. Say for example we made a raid with one boss, like Eye of Eternity. Now say Feral druids were slightly better at that fight. Does that mean druids are overpowered for that encounter?

There are 14 Ulduar bosses. If DKs are better at tanking 5 of those does that mean DKs are overpowered? If the next tier of content has bosses that druids are better at tanking, does that make things equal?

We want them to all be close ideally. Since we don't want to give every tank the exact same stats and gear they are never going to be 100% equal. The trick is discovering how much of a delta is too much (and it's an answer that's hard to generate with math alone).

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Ghost, disregarding gimmicks like fear break (Auriaya), how would you say that Warriors could be better at an encounter?

Just to make a bit more sense:

1) If the encounter is based on periodic bursts of damage such as enrage, periodic magic casts, etc Deathknights are best suited for the encounter. As a sidenote because they're currently the tanks with the best overall mitigation, avoidance and health, DKs are in general better at fights that don't favor a specific tank type.

2) If the encounter is resistance based (Hodir, various Hard Modes) Druids are the best tanks.

3) If the encounter is based on threat, IE the boss has to be burned down fast before an enrage, and raid members get a dps and therefore threat boost, Paladins are the best tanks.

4) If the encounter is based on ______, warriors are the best tanks.

Please fill in the blank? What are we supposed to be good at? We are pretty sure that we're the worst tanks for mitigation, health, avoidance, and steady damage intake. The only fight in Ulduar we're best at is one based on a gimmick.

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Q u o t e:
a sidenote because they're currently the tanks with the best overall mitigation, avoidance and health, DKs are in general better at fights that don't favor a specific tank type.

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Pretty sure we've debunked this.

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Q u o t e:


Pretty sure we've debunked this.

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How so? Frost DK still has the best as far as I've heard, got an EJ/Tankspot link?

warrior is probably best at bosses that aren't immune to stuns, have interruptable casts, and use fear effects.

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Q u o t e:


How so? Frost DK still has the best as far as I've heard, got an EJ/Tankspot link?

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No one cares about Frost. But yes, Frost would have the highest avoidance because of its added 3% miss. But no one cares.

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Q u o t e:
You know, those encounter designers are right across the hall here. I am waving at them right now. We all work pretty closely together to match the boss abilities to class abilities. We work even closer together on the numbers. When someone is tuning Frozen Blows or Imbalancing Strike, they do that knowing what the stam pools, mitigation, avoidance and cooldowns are of appropriately geared tanks.

That's not to say boss design is irrelevant. Say for example we made a raid with one boss, like Eye of Eternity. Now say Feral druids were slightly better at that fight. Does that mean druids are overpowered for that encounter?

There are 14 Ulduar bosses. If DKs are better at tanking 5 of those does that mean DKs are overpowered? If the next tier of content has bosses that druids are better at tanking, does that make things equal?

We want them to all be close ideally. Since we don't want to give every tank the exact same stats and gear they are never going to be 100% equal. The trick is discovering how much of a delta is too much (and it's an answer that's hard to generate with math alone).

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Part of the issue that you run into is that the delta changes for any given encounter, particulary if you look at the tank by themselves, and not consider what outside cooldowns can do to them as the cooldowns can be applied to anyone.

For example, a DK (in particular a Blood DK) effectively singlehandely negates the need to kite the boss. This is something no other tank can do on their own. While it is definitely possible to use outside cooldowns on say, a warrior, to accomplish the same goal, mana is an issue in this fight. The cooldowns cost mana, additional damage taken costs mana, the increased time of the fight if you have to kite costs mana that simply may not be available in hard mode. The difference in healing between a DK with IBF and Pain Suppression up and a Warrior with Last Stand and Pain Suppression could be dramatic.

On the other hand, warriors have a decided advantage tanking Freya, who hits like a limp noodle. Block in this circumstance is far more powerful than the armor difference.

Unfortunately, while all tanks have some niche, it seems that in every circumstance that challenges the tank's mitigation and survival, warriors come out behind. Until there is fights that are more challenging using certain classes (for example: a hit that is best avoided every 30 seconds that only a paladin can garauntee will never hit), there will consistently be crying threads. No one likes to be marginalized in every metric that actually matters to a tank, health, armor, avoidance, cooldowns, threat, dps. Perhaps the best way to "balance" the tanks is to have fights that clearly favor certain ones such as bosses with physical vulnerabilities and magical vulnerabilities to favor tanks for threat, etc etc.

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Q u o t e:


No one cares about Frost. But yes, Frost would have the highest avoidance because of its added 3% miss. But no one cares.

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I think you're taking how you feel, and since you're so damn important, assuming everyone else feels the same way.

Frost is fine for tanking

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Q u o t e:


How so? Frost DK still has the best as far as I've heard, got an EJ/Tankspot link?

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http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=16474246404&postId=168637592943&sid=1#17

Our guild has three tanks in our 25 man uldar of which two are death knights, and I must state they are both very good players but there is no way a warrior with the same skill level can tank as well as a death knight. Does this mean that a warrior tank is useless? My answer would be resounding no, but we are definitely the weak link in the tanking crew.

I believe there are three areas which blizzard should take a look at to bring the viability of a warrior up to the level of death knights.

1) The shield block mechanic is the major problem bringing warriors up to par with death knights, in that it mitigates 1500 to 2000 damage no mater how high the hit. This is not enough to survive many of the hard hitting boss fights we are experiencing in Uldar although it does help a lot on trash. My suggestion would be to change shield block to a percent of the damage blocked.

2) A second major issue is the cool down time of shield wall as compared to the cool downs that death knights possess.

3) A third issue is our health pool and amount of damage we take in comparison to DK tanks.

Let me be clear that I am not advocating that death knights should be nerfed. I actually believe blizzard has done a superb job with respect to their tanking ability, but blizzard does need to review warrior tanks and especially the shield block mechanic to bring us up to the same level as death knight tanks.

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Q u o t e:
There are 14 Ulduar bosses. If DKs are better at tanking 5 of those does that mean DKs are overpowered? If the next tier of content has bosses that druids are better at tanking, does that make things equal?

We want them to all be close ideally. Since we don't want to give every tank the exact same stats and gear they are never going to be 100% equal. The trick is discovering how much of a delta is too much (and it's an answer that's hard to generate with math alone).

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Well, remember that which bosses the discrepancies exist on is just as important as how big they are or how many bosses there are discrepancies with. Nobody cares if x class is OP/gimp for tanking Razorscale or Freya because tank survivability isn't a big aspect of those fights. The big problem is that Druids and DKs are by a big margin the better tanks for the bosses where keeping your tank up is designed to be one of the bigger factors of the encounter (ie Hodir and Thorim, especially on hard.) They could be by any margin worse than Pallies/Warriors for every single other fight in the zone and nobody would care, at least not nearly as much.

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Q u o t e:

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Q u o t e:
No one cares about Frost. But yes, Frost would have the highest avoidance because of its added 3% miss. But no one cares.

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Frost is fine for tanking

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Yes, but two things:
1) Frost is only one spec of DK;
2) Frost is not better overall than other DK tank specs.
...thus, Frost being able to get all of 3% more avoidance is not a big concern.

I'm going to take that a bit father, though...if the two major things we should be looking at are effective health and cooldowns, Frost is seriously not what we should be worried about as OP. Frost's unique "survival" cooldown is kinda like being able to carry a shield for 20s out of every 2 min, with all the non-scaling issues that Warriors and Paladins hate so much. If a Warrior is really that worried about Frost, he probably doesn't know what he should be worried about and should be directed elsewhere.

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Q u o t e:
You know, those encounter designers are right across the hall here. I am waving at them right now. We all work pretty closely together to match the boss abilities to class abilities. We work even closer together on the numbers. When someone is tuning Frozen Blows or Imbalancing Strike, they do that knowing what the stam pools, mitigation, avoidance and cooldowns are of appropriately geared tanks.

That's not to say boss design is irrelevant. Say for example we made a raid with one boss, like Eye of Eternity. Now say Feral druids were slightly better at that fight. Does that mean druids are overpowered for that encounter?

There are 14 Ulduar bosses. If DKs are better at tanking 5 of those does that mean DKs are overpowered? If the next tier of content has bosses that druids are better at tanking, does that make things equal?

We want them to all be close ideally. Since we don't want to give every tank the exact same stats and gear they are never going to be 100% equal. The trick is discovering how much of a delta is too much (and it's an answer that's hard to generate with math alone).

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With all due respect, guild leaders don't really pay attention to the "delta' that you speak of, thats only a designer problem. If a leader sees that one tank class is pretty much the best bet for 4-5 bosses due to their abilities, you can pretty much bet that they are going to use the same tank over and over.

I've tanked most boss fights in Uldaar, its not that it can't be done, its just a hell of a lot easier with a DK. I've gibbed my Shield wall to be on par with a DK tank in that respect.

I've tanked since the beginning of BC and I really don't see a reason to bring any tank other then a DK.