This might be an exercise in banging my head against the wall but i will try again.

Ghostcrawler said:

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Q u o t e:
"I don't like regen stats."
The solution here, from our POV, is not to take the regen stats off of gear, but to get you to care about them. To us, that's the same argument as saying "I can get all of the hit I need through talents, so hit on gear is a waste for me. Please remove it."

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Ok, if this is true why should some classes/specs care more about Regen stats then other classes/specs? I know that myself and other moonkin have talked about this before, but you guys have yet to respond or address it. Why are Moonkin tier 8 sets unfairly itemized into excessive amounts of Base/Regen stats and into deficant amounts of DPS stats? And how did Elemental Shaman completely miss the need to have Regen stats while all 4 other caster DPS classes didn't?

If you look at all 5 T8.25 caster DPS sets you will see they have an average Stats:

Stam -- 378
Int -- 374.8
Spirit -- 127.4

Crit -- 193
Haste -- 136.6
Hit -- 157
Spell -- 558.2

The Moonkin T8.25 set has the following stats:

Stam -- 381
Int -- 394
Spirit -- 216

Crit -- 132
Haste -- 136.6
Hit -- 176
Spell -- 542

Moonkin are above average in all three Base/Regen Stats except for Mp5 which all 5 sets have zero. On the flip side, Moonkin are below average on 3 of the 4 DPS stats. For a little more detail we are slightly above average in Hit (a stat that is needed in limited quantities), slightly below average in Spell Power, and way below average in Crit rating and Haste rating.

To make matters worse, Moonkin have the second worst gem socket sets, and if you total all of the base/regen stats together and all of the DPS stats together, all 4 other sets are below average in base/regen stats and above average in DPS stats. In statistical terms the Moonkin set is an outlier and throws off the averages. This also holds true if you exclude the elemental shaman set from the comparison.

I like most reasonable players don't expect blizzard to completely get rid of Spirit and Mp5 or any of the base stats. But I think it is reasonable that they are allocated fairly across classes. I'm not looking for the sets to be identical just reasonable.

Many suggestions have been made around these forms on how to fix this issue. I'm sure you've read them already. So I would like to know why this inequity in itemization is ok with you guys. If there is an explanation as to why you thing Moonkin need more Base/Regen stats an any other Caster DPS class I would love to hear it.

Graylo

Posted for Reference

Warlock
Stam -- 400
Int -- 362
Spirit -- 117

Crit -- 222
Haste -- 113
Hit -- 152
Spell -- 574

Shaman
Stam -- 387
Int -- 386
Spirit -- 0

Crit -- 241
Haste -- 180
Hit -- 184
Spell -- 548

Priest
Stam -- 388
Int -- 351
Spirit -- 155

Crit -- 202
Haste -- 200
Hit -- 84
Spell -- 552

Mage
Stam -- 334
Int -- 381
Spirit -- 149

Crit -- 168
Haste -- 109
Hit -- 199
Spell -- 575

And don't forget (like I need to remind you) that crit is a very good regen stat for moonkins. It's not that we don't want regen, its that we vastly prefer crit to spirit.

In an average boss fight, approximately 70% of ALL mana gained for me is gained from crits in moonkin form, assuming I don't use innervate. (including replenishment, JoW, etc.) Approximately 6% of my total mana regeneration comes from spirit in an average fight. I am specced 2/3 intensity.

I just realized this last night, and will be dropping intensity tonight before the raid, as it is essentially useless for me. As such, spirit is essentially nothing more than SP, with 70% of the item budget on it COMPLETELY wasted.

So, we have more spirit on our tier set than any other spec in the game, by a long shot, and yet, spirit is basically just a gimp substitute for SP, despite the fact that crit eclipses (pun intended) spirit in mana regeneration terms alone.

Either the tier set is designed poorly, or our class is designed poorly. One or the other. Which is it?

Because of their push to make classes want more of the same stats, Blizzard forgot why we worked so hard to have seperate sets for each of our specs - so that our set gear could be specialized to have the stats that each spec valued the most, wheras the non-set pieces could be more standardized. We want our set pieces to work with us, rather than against us.

It's not a matter of having more drops come from Ulduar, it's about making tokens actually give us things that are going to be better itemized for us, rather than making token drops have the same homogenized stats that come from random drops.

The vendors should come packed with things that are desired by fewer specs/classes. The vendors should have all of the relic items that are super specialized, rather than them being drops. The vendors should have more of the specialized pieces of gear.

Our set pieces should actually be itemized for stats we want the most, so that we're happy when we get set pieces, but we can make due with the non-set pieces that drop from bosses and are more homogenized with other specs/classes. It's not that hard, because that's what we had in Burning Crusade...

Every DPS set seems to have faults somewhere.

Priests don't like their 4 piece set bonus and the slathering of Haste on it, for example.

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Q u o t e:
Every DPS set seems to have faults somewhere.

Priests don't like their 4 piece set bonus and the slathering of Haste on it, for example.

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T8 was supposed to be better itemized than T7. The problem being pointed out is, unless we are all missing something, is that it isn't.

In addition, it isn't as well itemized as other caster sets. We aren't asking for 'perfect' itemization, there's supposed to be a steady progression from T7 to T8 to T9 and so on.

You know what's really funny? When using some basic stat weights (which I fully acknowledge are not perfect), the shadow priest set comes out better itemized for moonkins than the moonkin set.

Most of us just don't get it, and unfortunately we haven't been given any information in order to better understand why these choices were made. I'm sure that there is a reason, people don't do things 'just because'. There was a deliberate move to put A LOT of spirit on our T8, and I'm sure there was some sound reasoning behind it. However that reasoning currently escapes us. In all the recent information given, as Graylo points out, the only thing we've been told is that they don't want to get rid of spirit on the gear. Which is fine, I don't think we are asking (well maybe some people are) to make the spirit on the set be equal to 0. But as Gray is showing with his numbers above, we don't just have 'a little more' than the other classes, we have a lot more.

Oh to be a fly on the wall at blizz, so many things I would better understand :)

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Q u o t e:
Every DPS set seems to have faults somewhere.

Priests don't like their 4 piece set bonus and the slathering of Haste on it, for example.

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Haste for spriests >>>>>>>>>>>>> spirit for moonkins, period.

The moonkin 4T8 is currently broken, and blizz has yet to respond to any of the many complaints about it. (As in it is bugged such that a moonkin using the highest DPS rotation will not benefit from it AT ALL most of the time.)

On top of all this, we get more spirit than any other spec in the game, even while we get less out of the stat than any other spec save spriests, who, mind you, don't get nearly as much of it on their gear.

Tier sets are named for specific spec. They bear set bonuses which are specifically tailored to the specs for which they are designed. Why, then, should the set have such extremely "suboptimal" stats on it? Why isn't our tier set designed for us?

Homogenizing offset drops is one thing. We understand why that is being done. But, why is ONLY the balance tier set so homogenized? Why does no other offensive caster spec sacrifice so much in the way of offensive stats for a regeneration stat that regerates LESS mana, point for point, than one of our DPS stats? (namely crit)

Once again, either our tier set is extremely poorly designed, or our spec is. It is either one or the other, so blizzard, which is it?

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Q u o t e:
Either the tier set is designed poorly, or our class is designed poorly. One or the other. Which is it?

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Well, let's not be hasty-- it could very well be both.

I'm sorry if my post came off a bit rude, didn't mean it to be.

I do agree that Boomkins don't need NEARLY that much Spirit, but nearly every class seems to be finding faults. It's still just Tier 8, they still want Tier 9 to be more desirable of an upgrade than simply "X + Y". Regardless of the reasoning, badly itemized gear or weak set bonuses is frustrating.

However, I would trade you some of the Haste for that Spirit. :)

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Q u o t e:


Well, let's not be hasty-- it could very well be both.

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I don't really think telling blizzard they did a bad job is the right way to stimulate conversation and maybe gain some insight into the design process.

I think it would be much better to state that we don't understand why somethng is the way it is, we are trying to understand it, but we missing something.

Maybe they put a lot of spirit on the gear because of the changes to innervate back several months ago. I can see that as being totally plausible, because innervate went from generating about 9-10k mana on a moonkin, to generating 3-5k mana. Maybe the item guy/girl said "Well crap, I better get them some more spirit to make innervate more usefull".

However since then, innervate has been changed again, and is no longer based off spirit.

Maybe.

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Q u o t e:
I'm sorry if my post came off a bit rude, didn't mean it to be.

I do agree that Boomkins don't need NEARLY that much Spirit, but nearly every class seems to be finding faults. It's still just Tier 8, they still want Tier 9 to be more desirable of an upgrade than simply "X + Y". Regardless of the reasoning, badly itemized gear or weak set bonuses is frustrating.

However, I would trade you some of the Haste for that Spirit. :)

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Man how I wish I could take that trade!

Its kind of funny how the spriest set, apart from set bonuses of course, is in every way better itemized for balance druids than the set designed specifically for balance druids.

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Q u o t e:


Well, let's not be hasty-- it could very well be both.

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True Story.

Graylo has made this point time and again, but it seems to get worse instead of better. If I am looking at the stat weights properly, BOTH the mage and S.priest sets are itemized better for Boomkins than our own set. They changed Moonkin aura so spirit sucks SLIGHTLY less....but it is still sucktacular compared to anything else they could have put on it. Why not toss in some Agi and Str just to tell all the Boomkins out there how much they do not listen to us.

I never post anything as most anything I would say is said by many people...but this T8 crap was just too much.

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Q u o t e:


I don't really think telling blizzard they did a bad job is the right way to stimulate conversation and maybe gain some insight into the design process.

I think it would be much better to state that we don't understand why somethng is the way it is, we are trying to understand it, but we missing something.

Maybe they put a lot of spirit on the gear because of the changes to innervate back several months ago. I can see that as being totally plausible, because innervate went from generating about 9-10k mana on a moonkin, to generating 3-5k mana. Maybe the item guy/girl said "Well crap, I better get them some more spirit to make innervate more usefull".

However since then, innervate has been changed again, and is no longer based off spirit.

Maybe.

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I don't know how to tell someone they did a job poorly without insulting them, so i'm not going to even try. The fact is, they did the job poorly, and we are trying to point it out.

I am fairly certain that GC understands that we are complaining about the way the job was done, not the people who did it. He has thicker skin than that, he has to, or he would have quit long ago, lol.

Perhaps the spirit was put on the balance set in order to make innervate more useful for balance druids. That seems plausible. However, if that is the case, then it is undeniable that it is time to re-evaluate the stat allocation on the balance set.

Whatever the reasoning, there is no mechanic so "hidden" from theorycrafters which could explain how this spirit could be more of a boon than we think it is. It is all there, on the surface, easily analyzed. And as such, our set has been found wanting.

I want to scale upwards in DPS as my gear scales upwards in itemlevel. As it stands now, my DPS is scaling sideways (as in, not much) as my gear increases in itemlevel. This has everything to do with the stats on my gear, and THAT has everything to do with the way the gear was designed, which, in turn, has everything to do with the job the designers did on our tier set.

The job was done poorly, given the design of our spec. There is no other way to say it. Either the spec is designed poorly for the gear, or the gear is designed poorly for the spec, or both.

EDIT: This is not to say that the situation hasn't been improving lately, it has. The buff to imp moonkin form is appreciated, as is the change to innervate and the 4T8 bonus. These are good changes. But, they are bandaid fixes to larger underlying problems.

- What is the purpose of spirit? Is it a regen stat, a DPS stat, or filler meant to keep us from getting too much of actual DPS stats.
- Is spirit on our gear because you are afraid that moonkins would scale too well with more crit/haste, and you would rather give us "suboptimal" itemization rather than nerf our base talents/spells?
- Is crit meant to be a DPS stat, or a regen stat?
- Is dreamstate intended to be so useless? Why push spirit on a spec that has a talent which ostensibly makes our regen scale more with int than spirit? What is the design intent of dreamstate if all moonkins are to be pushed into speccing for intensity via our gearing?
- If you want us to want spirit, how do you intend to go about it? Are you going to nerf moonkin mana regeneration from other sources? Is a nerf for moonkin form's mana-on-crit mechanic incoming? Are you going to decrease our efficiency to force us into speccing 3/3 intensity? Do you intend to make mana such an issue that dreamstate becomes something other than a garbage talent? Will you be nerfing replenishment?
- Is there any intention of fixing 4T8 such that SF casts in progress don't consume the buff? Is there any intention of changing the ulduar idol such that the SF idol isn't better for all fights currently in game?
- Is there anything in the works to help balance become less reliant on standing still to do damage? I realize this was probably the original intent of 4T8 and the insect swarm idol, but both of these items have simply failed at that, if that was the design intent.
- Has any thought been given to the issue of balance being way too dependant on RNG? Is there a way for us to have more control over our DPS in the works?

These are questions that the devs must be asking themselves, and that must be asked and answered before our spec can be brought to a place where it makes sense.

I have a better idea. They should change 4-pc bonus because the developers did not take into account both Solar and Lunar Eclipse. There are many situations in Lunar Eclipse where a Moonkin would not use the proc because they wouldn't want to accidentally proc a Solar. Ontop of it being a huge lack luster set bonus already - compared to previous set bonuses we've seen, it is still bugged where the current Starfire cast will consume the buff if it procs during the cast.

Oh, and still not a fan of the Eclipse talent in general. It would be nice if GC would be able to give us an update if they are still thinking of redesigning the talent so it's not MISERY to play with anymore.

Edit// I'm bad at grammar.

Just glancing at your numbers here, looks like the average haste should be different. It's currently the same as you have listed for the Balance set =)

just wanted to let you know you put in the average haste of the other sets for the haste value on our set in your original post.

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Q u o t e:
To make matters worse, Moonkin have the second worst gem socket sets

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Seriously, at least T7/7.5 had solid gem itemization. We went from 5 red, 2 blue sockets to 2 red, 3 blue, 2 yellow. Why? Almost all moonkins gem for spellpower so why not let us benefit from the socket bonus? Quite frankly, I dont really care about the spirit issue as much as the sub par socket placement and secondary stats that were taken away... And we are wondering why "Balance dps is a little low on live"?

Well, if anything, I just want to jump on the bandwagon and say that I also feel that the T8/8/5 set is pretty poorly itemized considering. In consideration of replacing some of the other BiS (and close to BiS items) I'm in a dilemma of gimping other stats to do it.

This is especially true of a solar rotation that relies more on crit than ever... to change to the T8/8.5 I lose so much crit that it seems as if I'm totally gimping this rotation (which frankly, I've liked better than a lunar rotation).

I don't have the math that Graylo has, but I can definitely say that my experience and observation tells me that the set is poorly itemized and I'd rather just hang onto my T7.5 set rather than change it out.

As it stands right now, there are really only a few items in Ulduar that even seem appealing to me right now.

/sigh

Between GC's post that our 4 piece bonus can't be un-bugged and thinking about the unfair itemization some more, I'm getting pretty sick and tired of our T8.

/sadkitty =^.^=

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Q u o t e:
/sigh

Between GC's post that our 4 piece bonus can't be un-bugged and thinking about the unfair itemization some more, I'm getting pretty sick and tired of our T8.

/sadkitty =^.^=

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Yep, today is a bad day for moonkin gear.