World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Simple questions regarding balance direction.

Braveernest

< Rage >

Skullcrusher

0. Simple questions regarding balance direction. 05/06/2009 01:48:25 PM PDT

Just a few questions, hoping to get a response as these questions are kind of the talk of the forums at the moment. I'm going to try to get as many of the important ones as i can in one post.

1. Exorcism, currently it is still able to be used on pets. Is this an intended mechanic? If yes, why? If no, will it be fixed anytime soon.

2. Juggernaut. Currently this spell is considered by most as insufferably overpowered. Is this ability going to be tweaked in any way in the future? If so how?

3. Retribution burst and complexity. Is retribution burst going to be tweaked in any way soon? Is the retribution rotation going to be made any more complex in the future? If yes to either of those please elaborate.

4. Melee Domination. Currently Rogues, Ret Pallies, Warriors, and Deathknights are by far the dominating dps classes in arena. Is going to be any effort to give casters more of an edge?

5. Hunters. Currently hunters are the lowest represented class in arena. Is there going to be any effort to return them to a respectable state in pvp? If so, how?

These are probably the most popular topics on the forums right now and some input from a blue would probably bring the discussion out of the loop it is stuck in. It might also bring some hope/relief to many players. Please answer.

P.S. 6. When is SS gonna get nerfed?

Braveernest 80 Troll Hunter
Gingrbredman 70 Undead Rogue
Erny 55 Tauren Druid

"Arena has always been Russian Roulette for hunters; this season, all six chambers are loaded." ~Bromm of Hyjal

Zamm

< Eternal Evolution >

Quel'dorei

2. Re: Simple questions regarding balance direct 05/06/2009 02:21:14 PM PDT

1) why should it not be used on pets? Ret appears to be balanced in arena at the moment.

3) The PvE ret rotation is simple to use (tougher to master, like all classes), and even with the simple DPS rotation ret is 15% or so behind the pures. In PvP ret is far more complex with utility also being used heavily. In PvP ret is fairly complex. Oh, and balanced.

6) why does it need a nerf, ret appears to be balanced.

I am still waiting to see some evidence from somewhere that ret is OP at the moment, and I wish all the anti ret QQers would provide some evidence.

Why does being a ret pally feel like being an atheist, you ask for proof of God from a religious type and they change the subject and talk about the bible or faith. A ret pally asking for proof they are OP meets the same thing, no evidence just readings from the bubbleplatehealz scriptures with a small does of anecdotal revelations about burst.

Ahh I can picture it now, 5000 retadins charging into battle, one moment later,

"HEAL ME FFS!",

"NO YOU HEAL ME NOOB". -sayk

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

3. Re: Simple questions regarding balance direct 05/06/2009 03:28:13 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
1. Exorcism, currently it is still able to be used on pets. Is this an intended mechanic? If yes, why? If no, will it be fixed anytime soon.

Exorcism worked on demons and undead before, so the only real change here is versus hunter pets. We don't think this is a gigantic problem given that we've already said we plan to redesign how Exorcism works. If hunters are too weak in Arena, it's unlikely that Exorcism is the cause.

Q u o t e:
2. Juggernaut. Currently this spell is considered by most as insufferably overpowered. Is this ability going to be tweaked in any way in the future? If so how?

I would not include "considered by most" as part of my arguments. You have no idea if that's actually true and you don't need it in there to make a strong argument in the first place. Juggernaut is something we're keeping an eye on. We introduced it specifically to give warriors some much-needed PvP potency and don't want to immediately nerf it back to being a non-entity.

Q u o t e:
3. Retribution burst and complexity. Is retribution burst going to be tweaked in any way soon? Is the retribution rotation going to be made any more complex in the future? If yes to either of those please elaborate.

I have answered this recently. We want to make Retribution less about unloading multiple cooldown-restricted abilities all at once. We aren't ready to discuss our specific plan yet or we would have already done so.

Your other questions were on Arena representation. We will continue to work to make sure classes and specs are not too dominant nor too weak in Arena matches. I don't want to turn this thread into a "your class is OP", "no u" rugby scrum. Hunters are something we are paying close attention to. I don't think it's intuitively obvious if any specific nerfs went too far, or just whether the Arena environment is different now than it was last season. Changing one class often has effects on all the others. It's not as simple as just buffing one or nerfing one because those changes will likely cause another class or comp to rise or fall.

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Frostbult

< Gaped >

Malorne

4. Re: Simple questions regarding balance direct 05/06/2009 03:30:32 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
I have answered this recently. We want to make Retribution less about unloading multiple cooldown-restricted abilities all at once. We aren't ready to discuss our specific plan yet or we would have already done so.

Your other questions were on Arena representation. We will continue to work to make sure classes and specs are not too dominant nor too weak in Arena matches. I don't want to turn this thread into a "your class is OP", "no u" rugby scrum. Hunters are something we are paying close attention to. I don't think it's intuitively obvious if any specific nerfs went too far, or just whether the Arena environment is different now than it was last season. Changing one class often has effects on all the others. It's not as simple as just buffing one or nerfing one because those changes will likely cause another class or comp to rise or fall.

will they be ret only (tree) or will holy and prot be able to use them aswell?

Calsifer

< Was This Your Instan… >

Gorgonnash

6. Re: Simple questions regarding balance direct 05/06/2009 03:35:59 PM PDT

Ghostcrawler knows what rugby is!

edit: I don't think Braveearnest's caster vs. melee comment was about representation as much as it is about ease of play. Why is it that casters are so much harder to play with, especially caster dps? Is that intended? I mean, I do like it that mages are a hard class; I enjoy the challenge. I'm still interested in your (different) answer to his question though.

[ Post edited by Calsifer ]

I'm Sorry, Was This Your Instance?

Niala

< MostlyHarmless >

Draenor

7. Re: Simple questions regarding balance direct 05/06/2009 03:41:19 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Exorcism worked on demons and undead before, so the only real change here is versus hunter pets. We don't think this is a gigantic problem given that we've already said we plan to redesign how Exorcism works. If hunters are too weak in Arena, it's unlikely that Exorcism is the cause.

So why not implement resist for the holy school too. And give warlock pets some kind of resists.

I would not include "considered by most" as part of my arguments. You have no idea if that's actually true and you don't need it in there to make a strong argument in the first place. Juggernaut is something we're keeping an eye on. We introduced it specifically to give warriors some much-needed PvP potency and don't want to immediately nerf it back to being a non-entity.

No Only warlocks get nerfed back fast. See the change to Conflagrate.

I have answered this recently. We want to make Retribution less about unloading multiple cooldown-restricted abilities all at once. We aren't ready to discuss our specific plan yet or we would have already done so.

I think the way you have done with Dk is good, maybe you should change the paladin to use some kind of rune system to use their abilities.

Your other questions were on Arena representation. We will continue to work to make sure classes and specs are not too dominant nor too weak in Arena matches. I don't want to turn this thread into a "your class is OP", "no u" rugby scrum. Hunters are something we are paying close attention to. I don't think it's intuitively obvious if any specific nerfs went too far, or just whether the Arena environment is different now than it was last season. Changing one class often has effects on all the others. It's not as simple as just buffing one or nerfing one because those changes will likely cause another class or comp to rise or fall.

You certainly did a good job to make sure affliction wasn't too heavyly represented in arena with the change in 3.1

Playahatin

< Casual Slander >

Bonechewer

8. Re: Simple questions regarding balance direct 05/06/2009 03:47:01 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Your other questions were on Arena representation. We will continue to work to make sure classes and specs are not too dominant nor too weak in Arena matches. I don't want to turn this thread into a "your class is OP", "no u" rugby scrum. Hunters are something we are paying close attention to. I don't think it's intuitively obvious if any specific nerfs went too far, or just whether the Arena environment is different now than it was last season. Changing one class often has effects on all the others. It's not as simple as just buffing one or nerfing one because those changes will likely cause another class or comp to rise or fall.

The arena enviroment is no different this season than last season other than you buffed melee and nerfed hunters kiting ability to the point that it is useless. There was 0 reason to make traps not go off if the mob is immune to snares but you did and then wonder why hunters drop below 1% representation in 2s. You clearly over nerfed our damage. You have 5 playable melee classes that all do well in arenas but nerf deterrence and disengage and still say its not obvious nerf went to far

[ Post edited by Playahatin ]

Darcellus

< Second Division >

Azjol-Nerub

9. Re: Simple questions regarding balance direct 05/06/2009 03:47:57 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Your other questions were on Arena representation. We will continue to work to make sure classes and specs are not too dominant nor too weak in Arena matches. I don't want to turn this thread into a "your class is OP", "no u" rugby scrum. Hunters are something we are paying close attention to. I don't think it's intuitively obvious if any specific nerfs went too far, or just whether the Arena environment is different now than it was last season. Changing one class often has effects on all the others. It's not as simple as just buffing one or nerfing one because those changes will likely cause another class or comp to rise or fall.

To me the representation speaks for itself. Melee is totally dominating arena currently. All melee is above 11% representation while ranged are 5% or below. Hunters were around 12% representation last season and now are at .4%. If this not evident of issues then I would like to know what is. Currently their is a significant gap among all ranged compared to melee and that needs to be addressed ASAP if their is any hope to save this arena season.

Klebaten

< Obsidian Order >

Area 52

10. Re: Simple questions regarding balance direct 05/06/2009 03:54:44 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Exorcism worked on demons and undead before, so the only real change here is versus hunter pets. We don't think this is a gigantic problem given that we've already said we plan to redesign how Exorcism works. If hunters are too weak in Arena, it's unlikely that Exorcism is the cause.

Exorcism isn't the problem for hunters, no. The problem for hunters is we rely on a squishy, soft, chewy nougat filled pet that everyone is happy to burst open like a pinata and get to the candy inside. Then when they're done with the pet, they go smack the hunter around so they can turn their hair and bones into toothbrushes and toothpaste so they don't get cavities from chomping down on our pets in a few seconds.

Q u o t e:

Your other questions were on Arena representation. We will continue to work to make sure classes and specs are not too dominant nor too weak in Arena matches. I don't want to turn this thread into a "your class is OP", "no u" rugby scrum. Hunters are something we are paying close attention to. I don't think it's intuitively obvious if any specific nerfs went too far, or just whether the Arena environment is different now than it was last season. Changing one class often has effects on all the others. It's not as simple as just buffing one or nerfing one because those changes will likely cause another class or comp to rise or fall.

Could you please stop paying so close attention to hunters? We hate having holes drilled into the back of our heads with your eyebeams and this last patch showed us what happens when you do.

[ Post edited by Klebaten ]

Jabbar

Uldaman

11. Re: Simple questions regarding balance direct 05/06/2009 04:01:36 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Exorcism worked on demons and undead before, so the only real change here is versus hunter pets. We don't think this is a gigantic problem given that we've already said we plan to redesign how Exorcism works. If hunters are too weak in Arena, it's unlikely that Exorcism is the cause.

Except now, Exorcism always crits warlock pets now, whereas it did not have that functionality before hand. You wonder why warlock pets are dying so fast to Ret paladins? I'd think an auto-crit ability would be a good place to look first.

Q u o t e:

Your other questions were on Arena representation. We will continue to work to make sure classes and specs are not too dominant nor too weak in Arena matches. I don't want to turn this thread into a "your class is OP", "no u" rugby scrum. Hunters are something we are paying close attention to. I don't think it's intuitively obvious if any specific nerfs went too far, or just whether the Arena environment is different now than it was last season. Changing one class often has effects on all the others. It's not as simple as just buffing one or nerfing one because those changes will likely cause another class or comp to rise or fall.

You know, I'm really getting tired of the "it's too complicated to possibly understand" line. The fact of the matter is, a lot of things are very complicated. Does that mean we get to throw our hands in the air and ignore it? No. I'm sorry, but if one DPS spec of a hybrid class has more team synergy than any than mages and warlocks combined (Ret paladins), I think there's a bloody problem. And I think it's not a problem you should be dragging your feet on and making shoddy excuses about system complexity to cover your ass.

Furystrike

< Mine >

Greymane

12. Re: Simple questions regarding balance direct 05/06/2009 04:14:27 PM PDT

I would agree that "most" consider Juggernaut to be overpowered.

The problem is simply that 12-second cooldown charge + 25-second cooldown intercept = unkitable melee class.

If charge was a 20 second cooldown, and there was no Glyph of Rapid Charge, Juggernaut would be fine.

The problem is simply that 12-seconds is FAR FAR too low of a cooldown for such a powerful ability.

Edit: Also it's blindingly obvious that the Hunter nerfs went too far. Hunters would have been fine just by removing TnT and nerfing Wyvern Duration. What went too far is nerfing trap loading time, nerfing frost trap slow, nerfing disengage, and nerfing explosive shot all at the same time. And that's WITHOUT even mentioning Juggernaut--the ability that single-handedly trumps hunters now.

Edits: nevermind.

[ Post edited by Furystrike ]

Popomatic

< Unbound >

Gurubashi

13. Re: Simple questions regarding balance direct 05/06/2009 04:20:40 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

To me the representation speaks for itself. Melee is totally dominating arena currently. All melee is above 11% representation while ranged are 5% or below. Hunters were around 12% representation last season and now are at .4%. If this not evident of issues then I would like to know what is. Currently their is a significant gap among all ranged compared to melee and that needs to be addressed ASAP if their is any hope to save this arena season.

Both teams have a disc priest, but one DPS has a mana bar and the other has an infinite resource. I wonder who is going to win most of those... hrmmm.

Maybe if they give some other healer an energy / rage burn ability.

Milkchocolat

< Call Me William >

Smolderthorn

14. Re: Simple questions regarding balance direct 05/06/2009 04:22:35 PM PDT

Juggernaut is in my opinion what fixed the PVP arms warrior. Tools to kite keep getting better and kiting spells are being added and added while our tools to fight it remained stagnant. To fix juggernaut properly will also require nerfs across the board to the different spells used to keep the distance because it simply wasn't fair before.

Tailslol

Vek'nilash

15. Re: Simple questions regarding balance direct 05/06/2009 04:23:43 PM PDT

So what you are saying is, you nerfed hunters, and buffed their counters and then wonder if any of those changes went too far.

Really?

Known as Tails from Ravencrest-EU, Sienna from EJ Hunter Mechanics thread, lvl 80 Hunter and longtime theorycrafter

Furystrike

< Mine >

Greymane

16. Re: Simple questions regarding balance direct 05/06/2009 04:28:25 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Both teams have a disc priest, but one DPS has a mana bar and the other has an infinite resource. I wonder who is going to win most of those... hrmmm.

Maybe if they give some other healer an energy / rage burn ability.

Mages go out of mana far too fast, and have no ability to do damage while focused, even if they're not taking massive damage themselves. I proposed in another thread a talent to give Frost Mages a mana-free Cone of Cold proc'd by getting attacked in melee to address this. But the fact is, if a Mage only lasts about a minute in PvP without having to think about resetting a fight to get mana back, something is horrendously wrong. That, and Mages can go 100-30 in a Ret or Warrior's single global cooldown.

Hunters? Hunters are destroyed by every single melee, now that Frost Trap is 50% and disengage is a longer cooldown--that's if you can even get Frost Trap off, with the new (foolish) "immune" trap mechanics.

Warlocks? Warlocks basically "stand and take it", but they don't have enough instant-damage to overcome this playstyle, now. There's no penalty to training a warlock. It's the correct strategy every time, because the difference between "warlock getting attacked by melee" and "warlock free-casting" is so absurdly large. Mages, at least, require effort to get into combat with (unless you're a warrior, I guess. lol-12-second-charge).

Shadow? See warlocks.

Elemental? See warlocks.

Balance? See warlocks.

Aluura

< PreLoaded >

Dethecus

17. Re: Simple questions regarding balance direct 05/06/2009 04:29:19 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
1) why should it not be used on pets? Ret appears to be balanced in arena at the moment.

3) The PvE ret rotation is simple to use (tougher to master, like all classes), and even with the simple DPS rotation ret is 15% or so behind the pures. In PvP ret is far more complex with utility also being used heavily. In PvP ret is fairly complex. Oh, and balanced.

6) why does it need a nerf, ret appears to be balanced.

I am still waiting to see some evidence from somewhere that ret is OP at the moment, and I wish all the anti ret QQers would provide some evidence.

Why does being a ret pally feel like being an atheist, you ask for proof of God from a religious type and they change the subject and talk about the bible or faith. A ret pally asking for proof they are OP meets the same thing, no evidence just readings from the bubbleplatehealz scriptures with a small does of anecdotal revelations about burst.

I am fairly certain that he did not say that ret was overpowered or that it needs to be nerfed once. He (along with many others) beleive that ret needs to be changed to make it more complex, and allow it to last longer. Pressing three buttons and then being like a fish out of the water is not fun, its mindnumbing. Also, if you want proof as to why we say (falsly) that ret is overpowered, how about you give us proof as to how ret PVP is complex?

Graymouser

< Terminus Venatus >

Area 52

18. Re: Simple questions regarding balance direct 05/06/2009 04:29:52 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Juggernaut is something we're keeping an eye on. We introduced it specifically to give warriors some much-needed PvP potency and don't want to immediately nerf it back to being a non-entity.

And... where does lock pvp potency figure in your plans? When other classes need buffs they get cool toys. Locks get to be fascinated by the multitude of ways you devs find to nerf us.

Furystrike

< Mine >

Greymane

19. Re: Simple questions regarding balance direct 05/06/2009 04:34:37 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Juggernaut is in my opinion what fixed the PVP arms warrior. Tools to kite keep getting better and kiting spells are being added and added while our tools to fight it remained stagnant. To fix juggernaut properly will also require nerfs across the board to the different spells used to keep the distance because it simply wasn't fair before.

This is total crap.

Yes, Juggernaut fixed PvP Arms. Juggernaut also overpowered PvP Arms. Within two weeks, Warrior/Druid and Warrior/Paladin teams will exceed Priest/X teams easily.

Think about it like this: Warriors, with the exception of RNG MaceStun and Hamstring, were moderately balanced in BC. They had a 15 second cooldown intercept, could be kited and locked down, yet were generally considered 'too strong'. That's 4 distance-closers per minute. Without intervene.

Arms Warriors now: about the same, but with a 12-second charge in-combat PLUS 25-second intercept. That's 7.4 distance-closers per minute (again, without intervene).

Charge is on a lower cooldown than blink, and warriors have intercept and intervene leftover. You don't see this as a massive problem? What other kiting tools would you be referring to? Disengage? The disengage that's on the same cooldown as intercept?

Literally--the ONLY "kiting tool" that's new is Chains of Ice. And I'll agree that Chains of Ice is, in fact, overpowered against warriors. Against everyone else, though? Juggernaut is absurdly overpowered.

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