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Q u o t e:
Please change the procs on two of the best trinkets in the game to not become entirely useless when you make this change.

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Please change the stats on the best gear for DK's in the game to not become entirely useless when you make this change.

Doubt it'll happen, but hey can't help but ask since 2/3rds of DK's have virtually no use for armor penetration at all unless it's extreme.

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Q u o t e:
Please change the procs on two of the best trinkets in the game to not become entirely useless when you make this change.

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Just change them to static amounts of ArP IMO.

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Q u o t e:


Just change them to static amounts of ArP IMO.

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its not the proc itself its the amount of the proc.

Having grim toll proc when you are already over 50% ArP (If this change goes through) makes part of the proc entirely useless.


If you changed it to a static amount it would be A LOT lower ArP than 50% making the trinket even worse IMO.

The point of the trinkets like this is to pop CDs when stuff goes on.

Currently, the formula picks up steam beyond 100% ArPen. If it's possible programming-wise, I'd instead suggest mirroring the armor mitigation formula at 100% ArPen. This would mean that the scaling would start off slow, then pick up, just as it does now. When it hits 100%, the scaling reverses and the value starts going down again. This would also make sense physically, as the idea (stated by someone else earlier) would be using the person's own armor against them. Against a clothie with 4k armor, you can't turn it against them as much. Against a plate-wearer, you give armor penetration a serious purpose. Furthermore, it fits the PvE mold because all bosses have similar armor values.

I think this would work, because it would allow reasonable amounts of ArPen to continue to serve their well-balanced purpose, as well as providing a smaller (but still significant) bonus when multiple procs line up to give you well over 100%. To theorycraft a bit, a BiS Rogue will be looking at an ArPen value of about 2.4-2.5 AP, which is 20-25% more than that of equivalent AP or Agility amounts. With this change, you'd be maximizing ArPen's effectiveness in the neighborhood of 2.0-2.2, which is perfect.

This way, it has a built-in diminishing return without a hard cap, and more importantly, it leads to a linear scaling of damage done. Consider: A boss starts at 50% armor mitigation. You use an attack that does 1000 flat damage, it hits for 500. Now, we use ArPen to reduce the boss's armor to 0% mitigation (100% ArPen, or about 1280 rating), you have effectively doubled your damage to 2000. If we then use the formula I suggest, another 100% ArPen (2560 rating now) would result in an additional 50% damage, for a total of 1500 damage.

Repeating the numbers, 0 ArPen = 500 damage. 1280 ArPen = 1000 damage. 2560 ArPen = 1500 damage. This amounts to roughly linear scaling, even if it is not truly linear. The contribution from ArPen would actually follow a bell curve centered around 100% ArPen. Compare this to the current system, which results in an exponential progression from 100% ArPen to an infinity at 300%.

To summarize: Take the armor mitigation formula. Alter it to reflect added damage instead of reduced damage, by the same percentages. It'll never result in more than a 75% armor increase, regardless of how much you stack. Give negative armor a meaning, rather than leaving it somewhat undefined, and I think everyone wins.

A good change. As for the trinkets.. just use one of them. They're probably still BiS for many classes as they are.

It seems like people got caught up in the "you can't lower armor below zero" mentality because the stats NAME implies that it is used to simply remove or negate the armor that the target is wearing. Logically speaking, there is some validity to this point. That being said, there isn't enough validity to reverse an existing determination made by GC on the 11th, a determination that very accurately addressed the fact that ArPen WAS an utterly undesirable stat.

After seeing that post I, and I'm sure many others, went out of our way to obtain both Grim and Mjolnir, only to (in my case) discover literally minutes after accomplishing that feat, that now ArPen is going to be returned to the junk heap.

The funny thing is that reduction of armor below zero and inherent dps increases are actually logical... From ArPen you get the ability to cleave through plate as if it were tissue paper, with enough of it, why would you NOT inflict significant soft-tissue damage with your unimpeded strike? If the stat had been named Piercing Attacks or something similar from the beginning I doubt that this "issue" would ever have arisen. After all, no one is surprised that armor piercing shells do more damage to highly armored targets than standard rounds IRL ;P

Lastly, please GC don't convert ArPen into another almost useless stat that has to be micro managed. I'm really getting irritated by having to quite literally regem 2-3 pieces of gear every time I get a new "upgrade". Its actually ok for the game to have a few stats that don't scale in the exact same manner, and its even ok for melee to get some stats that can be safely stacked as high as we can reasonably attain. If you do decide to implement this change, please do increase the duration and lower the effect on grim and Mjolnir, so they can at least be useful trinkets, I'd also like to put in a word for the rogue community and request the removal of all ArPen from our gear. After all if you do choose to make the stat awful again I'm pretty sure we would all rather just avoid dealing with it ;D Heck, at that point I'd even like to see a trinket with a NEW stat "ArmorPenAvoidance" that converts all ArPen to agi ;P

Thanks for reading ;P

Please make a decision quickly since it is effecting gearing choices and dkp.

I will say this is exactly what will happen whenever blizzard decides to let us know that something *May* change.

People will *%**@ that it ruins their gearing choices and that it should be done now or never. I admit I feel somewhat similar in regards to this.

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Q u o t e:
Please make a decision quickly since it is effecting gearing choices and dkp.

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this.

If you do cap armor penetration, can you please only cap it with Gear and Trinket procs. Its still going to be optimal to stack armor pen to reach said cap, however if people are stacking to the cap assuming sunder armor then Shattering Throw will lose its utility in a raiding setting. This also goes to Mace Spec and Battle Stance as well + any other armor pen talent (I believe DKs have one). I really think the best way to do that is cap the amount of armor pen you can get as it appears in the tooltip through gear. Debuffs and Talents that don't appear in the tooltip should be ignored.

The only reason people are getting to the cap are the silly armor pen trinkets. Lets not remove the usefullness of class abilities because of some silly trinkets.

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Q u o t e:


I have almost 75% passive armor pen and 2 trinkets that boost it to 175% armor pen when they're both up, and guess what? My dps is still much further below than rogues and most other classes (depending on fight of course).

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Hybrid. Class.

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Q u o t e:


Hybrid. Class.

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Not exactly, yes they are a hybrid but they are too far behind

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Q u o t e:


Hybrid. Class.

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This statement continues to annoy me. Warriors are hybrids yes, but so are death knights, and druids, and yet these two tank/dps (though druids are tank/dps/ranged dps/ healers) can still out dps a warrior by a good 1k on many fights, more so on some.....

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Q u o t e:




Yes. Even against a fully sundered target, armor pen will still improve your dps. For nearly all reasonable cases, it remains a good stat unless you are a class or spec that does a high amount of non-physical damage. The cases were you could currently go negative are very contrived and involved stacking armor pen at the expense of all other stats and hoping your procs all go off at once. We can’t imagine this will be a nerf for anyone currently in the game.

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You can go negative now even with only mildly stacking it and using one of two possible trinkets; going full-out and using even one trinket makes this a huge nerf, not to mention using both; that's ignoring even any Warrior who's dumb enough to use Mace Spec, which is... really, really bad.

This isn't an edge case in PvE here, GC. Almost any Ulduar-geared Warrior or Blood DK picking up gear and trying to use either Grim Toll or Mjolnir Runestone will be losing portions of the proc when it goes off with this change, and that's without switching gemming over to ArP.

EDIT:

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Q u o t e:


While you can pretty confidently say that there was virtually no player that had 100% passive arpen

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I would be if I used a Mace.

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Q u o t e:


The entire point of announcing changes ahead of time is so that you don't grab items that are due to be changed soon then cry about them losing their potency.

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How about the thousands of us who already got those items based on what GC told us the first time?

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Q u o t e:


We started to take a look at the next couple of tiers of gear.



Yes. Even against a fully sundered target, armor pen will still improve your dps. For nearly all reasonable cases, it remains a good stat unless you are a class or spec that does a high amount of non-physical damage. The cases were you could currently go negative are very contrived and involved stacking armor pen at the expense of all other stats and hoping your procs all go off at once. We can’t imagine this will be a nerf for anyone currently in the game.



Stacking armor pen at the expense of all other stats is not a reasonable or intended way for warriors to “catch up” to rogues. It’s still a good stat for warriors.



We made armor pen a better stat in a previous patch. I am fairly confident that many of the posts above decrying this as a nerf are over-estimating how close to removing more than 100% armor you really were. Even if you have two armor pen trinkets and they both proc simultaneously, that is going to be very low uptime. This is not a nerf. It's a preventative measure to keep things from breaking at future tiers of gear or in really exotic situations.

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To make sure I understand this correctly. So I don't gear inappropriately for the future...

100% ArP Passive. + Sunder Armor = 120% legit?
100% ArP Passive + Sunder Armor + Shattering Throw = 140% ArP = Legit?
100% ArP passive + Trinket proc = 100% ArP?

So you're making the 100% ArP cap (if it goes live) a cap on only ArP on your side... all debuffs will stack on top of that cap for added armor penetration?