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Q u o t e:
A spammable ability we can use between Eclipse procs (when we dont want to proc Eclipse) would be interesting, but I think that would be a lot more work to develop than to reconfigure Eclipse.

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I like this idea, but it comes with issues.

The ability has to be balanced to where it is worth using, but it can't be too good or it would be all we use. In the end, this spell would be directly linked to Eclipse and how strong the talent is.

This is why I like the idea of a stacking buff from Eclipse more now instead of any form of proc. This allows for us to add in new abilities or tweak rotations in various ways without having to worry too much about how the rotation would become broken in a sense.


Someone mentioned the Mage talent Brain Freeze (sorry, I don't have multiple tabs open as I usually do to see the name) and this could be a good way to make Eclipse.

It could be stackable (I know, I love stacking things!) like this. Your Starfire crits have a 100% chance to increase your Wrath damage by 3% (stacks 3 times) and your Wrath crits have a 100% chance to increase the critical strike chance of your Starfire by 20% (stacks 5 times.) Getting to 5 stacks really wouldn't be required, but the higher you get, the less chance you have of RNG messing the Druid up. The best rotation would probably only stack to 3 as Druids should have close to 40% Starfire crit chance in a raid thus they would be capped, so some skill is added in. Maybe have each buff last 10 seconds, maybe 15.

how about making spirit = 15% SP and 15% crit so that it is actually helping our rotations instead of just boosting our output. As of now we lost overall crit due to scorch and all of our gear has either crit os haste. There are almost no pieces that don't waste 85% (70% after the patch) of a huge stat unless we dip down into cloth and start stealing gear from clothies. Or just add in some gear that is actually itemized for moonkins (which would also be itemized for elemental shamans if you are worried about having a drop for only 1 spec). As we stand now, moonkins don't need mana regen talents to raid 25 mans due to crit being our main regen stat, so we also don't need all of the spirit to increase our mana regen. Making 15% spirit - crit would actually boost our mana regen (and maybe have an across the board boost in our mana cost by 5-10% and make up for it in moonglow for leveling and restos) and make our gear choices more about absolute upgrades instead of "Z piece is a great item once i get X piece to make up for the loss of Y stat"

The short-term fix to Eclipse would be to set BOTH of the effects to proc 100% of the time off crits. I think the problem with using wrath to proc starfire is that with a 60% chance to proc it (on a chance to crit) makes it too unreliable, and probably brings around a lot of the complaints about DPS variation.

In terms of feeling "wanted" in raids, it's been a LOT better in WotLK for raiding moonkins than it was in Vanilla or BC. So, in terms of that goal, I believe that we're doing okay.

Couldn't the same lack of 'opportunity of learning' be applied to the current eclipse? There is a very clear order of things to do with no actual variation in execution, simply the opportunity to execute (rng h8 etc).



/push button, receive bacon!

Also, i like the idea of a stacking bonus from casting each spell. Make it stack a bonus from casting SF to increase the damage of wrath, but only stackable while eclipse is active. Say you get a lunar eclipse and you start spamming SF, each SF would give you a buff to do 10% more damage with wrath for 10 seconds and each stack of the buff would refresh the timer. So when your eclipse is over you switch to wrath spam while you set up for the next eclipse. If you get a solar eclipse each of your wrath casts applies a buff to give you 1% more crit with SF for 10 seconds (you could only ideally get 15 stacks with NG up prolly more like 10-12 stacks) refreshing the buff with each cast during eclipse. So that when eclipse is over you have 8-10 seconds of 15% extra crit with SF untill you set up your next eclipse.

Something still needs to be done to wrath to make it able to scale with haste/NG. It is better now but there is still a relatively low haste cap for NG- wraths. Maybe change starlight wrath to decrease cast time of SF by .5 seconds and increase DMG of wrath by 5% (instead of reducing its cast time)

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Q u o t e:

In terms of feeling "wanted" in raids, it's been a LOT better in WotLK for raiding moonkins than it was in Vanilla or BC. So, in terms of that goal, I believe that we're doing okay.

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I wonder how much of that is simply due to being a massive raid buff dispenser? We have an awful large variety.

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Q u o t e:
Also, i like the idea of a stacking bonus from casting each spell. Make it stack a bonus from casting SF to increase the damage of wrath, but only stackable while eclipse is active. Say you get a lunar eclipse and you start spamming SF, each SF would give you a buff to do 10% more damage with wrath for 10 seconds and each stack of the buff would refresh the timer. So when your eclipse is over you switch to wrath spam while you set up for the next eclipse. If you get a solar eclipse each of your wrath casts applies a buff to give you 1% more crit with SF for 10 seconds (you could only ideally get 15 stacks with NG up prolly more like 10-12 stacks) refreshing the buff with each cast during eclipse. So that when eclipse is over you have 8-10 seconds of 15% extra crit with SF untill you set up your next eclipse.

Something still needs to be done to wrath to make it able to scale with haste/NG. It is better now but there is still a relatively low haste cap for NG- wraths. Maybe change starlight wrath to decrease cast time of SF by .5 seconds and increase DMG of wrath by 5% (instead of reducing its cast time)

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I keep getting switched to my alt, this is my main.

and yes, with "sit and nuke" fights we are very competitive, but we fall behind when our rotation takes a hit from movement and variation alot more than other classes. RNG effects us alot more when we have to move, do we cast a non-optimal rotation and wait for the switch or do we go with our rotation and hope it doesn't proc eclipse at the wrong time? I think too much of our dps is based around eclipse and doesn't stand as well on its own

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Q u o t e:
The short-term fix to Eclipse would be to set BOTH of the effects to proc 100% of the time off crits. I think the problem with using wrath to proc starfire is that with a 60% chance to proc it (on a chance to crit) makes it too unreliable, and probably brings around a lot of the complaints about DPS variation.

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I agree - and also have Eclipse proc on spell cast and not when the missile actually hits, so it works like Nature's Grace. It's annoying to see from a nature's grace proc that Wrath crit, but that you have to wait the 3 seconds it takes for the projectile to hit the target, to find out if Eclipse actually procced.

And while we're at it, have Earth and Moon also apply on spell cast, since currently, if you cast Wrath, the 2nd Wrath wont get the 13% increased damage from Earth and Moon, since the debuff isn't registered since the projectile of the previous Wrath hasn't hit yet.

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Q u o t e:




Totally agree that Brain Freeze is a pretty good mechanic. It works though because Frost never wants to use Fireball normally. For Balance, we need to keep both nukes in play. The spec is less fun to play (for me anyway) when Starfire or Wrath clearly wins and you just nuke with that spell.

An ideal rotation, if we can make it work, would be more like SF x 3-6 then Wrath x 3-6, with Insect Swarm, Moonfire and the rest thrown in as needed. The "3-6" means that if you switch at the wrong time, your dps is still decent, but if you switch at the right time, your dps is better. But it can't be a 100% predictable number or there is no learning -- no opportunity to improve your game -- involved.

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I think maybe you missed my point. I don't like Brain Freeze because it encourages use of a spell from a different school of magic. I like it because it provides a temporary buff with a large enough window of time so that is doesn't need to be used right away. With Eclipse, I get a 15-second buff, and if I don't take advantage of it for the entire 15 seconds, then my DPS suffers. Take Thaddeus for example... if the buff is active when I have to switch sides, then I lose 20-30% of it (assuming it takes 3-5 seconds to move from one side to the other). Or on Ignis, if he Flame Jets while I'm casting Starfire, I lose nearly half the buff.
The idea I presented would increase the size of the window, but still give a better guarantee that I can fully make use of what the buff offers.


Edit: Let me eloaborate.
Currently, if you're fishing for a Lunar Eclipse and then get one, you have 15 seconds of buffed Starfire casting. If you can cast uninterrupted for the entire 15 seconds, that's 5 Starfires (maybe 6 if you stack enough haste). What I proposed above would still give you 5 buffed Starfires, and no more, but allow you a 30 second window in which to cast them.
Scenario 1: Eclipse procs immediately before a Malygos vortex. Currently you'd lose nearly the entire benefit. With my idea, you could still get 5 buffed Starfire casts after the vortex ends.
Scenario 2: You just got an Eclipse proc, and then Ignis does Flame Jet. If you knew it was coming, you could continue casting Wrath and let your Nature school get locked, and then cast Starfire afterward. Or if you got caught by surprise, you could still cast 4 more buffed Starfires after you get your Arcane school back.
Scenario 3: You're in a Patchwerk-style fight, but Eclipse procs right as Moonfire falls off the target. Under my plan, you can refresh Moonfire, and even Insect Swarm if you want to, and then still get 5 buffed Starfires.
If DPS turns out to be too high with that plan, you could tweak the internal cooldown.

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Q u o t e:

And while we're at it, have Earth and Moon also apply on spell cast, since currently, if you cast Wrath, the 2nd Wrath wont get the 13% increased damage from Earth and Moon, since the debuff isn't registered since the projectile of the previous Wrath hasn't hit yet.

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I'm glad someone else noticed that. I thought it was just me imagining that.

GC, would you prefer suggestions based on existing mechanics present for other classes, or something totally unique?

I could see boosting survivability/utility by allowing wrath to heal the moonkin for a percent of the damage done.
I could see leveling out DPS by having wrath refresh insect swarm.
I could see adding DPS by having wrath give 'free' damage (like a dot on the target, or a damage 'proc' like shaman get).

Charges certainly solves the movement problem, since we at least gain a window of use somewhat under our control, as opposed to being completely at the mercy of chance, but frankly still sounds clunky to me.

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Q u o t e:

An ideal rotation, if we can make it work, would be more like SF x 3-6 then Wrath x 3-6, with Insect Swarm, Moonfire and the rest thrown in as needed. The "3-6" means that if you switch at the wrong time, your dps is still decent, but if you switch at the right time, your dps is better. But it can't be a 100% predictable number or there is no learning -- no opportunity to improve your game -- involved.

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If the direction is to make Balance Druids even more reliant upon Wrath, then would it possible to re-evaluate the effect of haste on Wrath?

Right now, Wrath still get's hurt too much from extreme Haste values. We can gear ourselves to stay around 400 so as to not hurt ourselves under normal circumstances, but things like Heroism, certain trinket procs, and fight mechanics (such as Hodir) make Wrath virtually unusable.

Please change the Glyph of Wrath to increase Wrath's damage by 40% and the cast time by .5 seconds. Or, better yet, make it a Minor Glyph (although as a Minor Glyph it would probably only have to increase Wrath damage by 35% to keep DPS equalized, 40% would result in an actual gain of DPS, which should not be the purpose of Minor Glyphs.)

Or find some other method of allowing Wrath to be usable during these periods of extreme Haste.

The only real issue I have with Moonkin dps is just how painfully random it is, especially in ulduar.
Most fight mechanics make it so that you can completely waste several eclipse procs based on chance alone, and this completely cripples our dps if we are unlucky, which has absolutely nothing to do with skill or gear.

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Q u o t e:
how about making spirit = 15% SP and 15% crit so that it is actually helping our rotations instead of just boosting our output.

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I think this would be a much better fix, and not just for our PVE rotations. Our mana regen is based on crit and this would be huge help in PVP. Our talents that boost damage (directly or through haste) are based on crit and this would be a huge help in overcoming resilience.

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Q u o t e:

I'm in total hand-waving, brainstorm mode here. This is not a design we have cooking that we're all ready to implement, but imagine Eclipse worked something like this: Every Starfire you cast has a 20% cumulative chance of making your next Wrath do 30% more damage. So after SF1, the chance is 20%, but after SF5 the chance is 100%. That encourages you to swap spells somewhat randomly, but less random than the system we have now. The goal is to have something where you sometimes switch after SF 3 and sometimes after SF 5. Good druids would always switch at the right time and those who are still trying to maximize their potential could get better about switching at the right time. You could also have a system where every SF has a chance of making Wrath slightly better, with a stack on that effect, so that at some point it's the right time to switch. Don't feel the need to point out how you could game this system -- I spent all of 2 minutes coming up with it. If and when we decide to change it, we'd put far more work into the design.

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GC, I wanted to thank you for this. I love seeing just random ideas that Blizzard goes through. It's really interesting and frankly, I almost wish you guys did a Penny Arcade style podcast series that's just putting a microphone in the room when the designers are talking.

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Q u o t e:



If the direction is to make Balance Druids even more reliant upon Wrath, then would it possible to re-evaluate the effect of haste on Wrath?

Right now, Wrath still get's hurt too much from extreme Haste values. We can gear ourselves to stay around 400 so as to not hurt ourselves under normal circumstances, but things like Heroism, certain trinket procs, and fight mechanics (such as Hodir) make Wrath virtually unusable.

Please change the Glyph of Wrath to increase Wrath's damage by 40% and the cast time by .5 seconds. Or, better yet, make it a Minor Glyph (although as a Minor Glyph it would probably only have to increase Wrath damage by 35% to keep DPS equalized, 40% would result in an actual gain of DPS, which should not be the purpose of Minor Glyphs.)

Or find some other method of allowing Wrath to be usable during these periods of extreme Haste.

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Maybe somehow design wrath to just increase DPS past X point of haste? Once you hit the 1 second cap, every point of umm... 'overhaste' translate into some kind of percentage DPS increase?

I've been alting around a lot, so I don't have a good recent WWS to post.

But since you wanted a sample from a range of Moonkins I'll give you an opinion from someone who has gone from having the raiding bug in TBC to a much more casual stance now.

My dps is definitely lower than similarly geared mages and locks, and a lot lower than rogues on melee friendly fights. However the difference isn't enough that I get complaints about not pulling my weight.

I should point out that due to the community that I raid with I can't count on replenishment and thus I don't have an optimized spec for DPS, but still am capable of adequate output. A side effect is that I do get a noticable improvement in ability to offheal and use utility spells without worrying about going oom.

I have to say that overall I'm pleased with how Eclipse changed the Moonkin playstyle from TBC to Wrath. It took me a while before I appreciated it though.

As far as faults with Eclipse go the two big ones have been pointed out already: lack of ability to control the timing of the burst, and the fact that forced movement can negate big chunks of it.

I don't think that these faults are great enough that something needs to be done about them right now though.

One thing that I think might be an interesting possibility would be a spell or talent that's a nerfed version of Deathchill. A button on cooldown that the moonkin could press to increase crit chance, the effect would be consumed by either the next crit or by an Eclipse proc. The idea being to preserve the random onset of Eclipse, but also letting us have a way of feeling like we can influence the onset of Eclipse for things like heroism or a target that needs to be burned down right away. It might also help moonkins a bit with more (but not compete) controllability of burst in PvP.

It's very nice to be able to feel that you can do something to affect the outcome even if it doesn't always work. I would worry a bit about a 100% crit though because Eclipse on demand might be OP, though I suppose that could be managed somewhat with cooldown length.

I also feel that giving some control of when Eclipse triggers would also address loosing Eclipse uptime to movement, as we would be able to make more of an effort to have the Eclipse internal cooldown coincide with the times we need to be moving.

For now I'm content with the status quo or minor tweaks. I think that the Devs have done a really excellent job of listening to our feedback so far in Wrath even if changes don't always happen quite as fast as we might wish. If you look at the old class feedback threads from the end of BC and look at Moonkins right now there's a lot of evidence that the active Moonkin community makes good suggestions and the folks at Blizzard pay attention to them.