Alrighty - so, from all of the parses that have been posted here and after looking at some of the top ranked fights found elsewhere, here is what I came up with.

Balance Druid, irregardless of GC's comment, both is and is not too low. There are plenty of examples wherein Balance Druids are not too low in comparison to their raid - however, and forgive me if this sounds rude (although it applies to my guild as well) - this only often occurs within average guilds. In guilds that are parsing the absolute 'best' for any given encounter, their Balance Druids generally seem to do worse on average. However, there are several occasions where Balance Druids are ranked high in all situations. I would venture to guess that these are parses where Eclipse performed exceptionally well.

What does this mean? Balance Druids have a very strange skill cap - if that term is appropriate. Our rotation isn't quite the same simplistic nature of other classes (such as a Fire Mage) but it isn't overly complex. Once the standard skill of knowing when to re-apply DoTs and the capacity to watch an Eclipse cooldown timer are reached, there's nothing more a Druid can do to increase their DPS. There are a few subtle options - Force of Nature right before a Heroism, Starfall after an Eclipse proc for increased NG uptime - but none of these have any drastic impact on DPS. It merely falls down to RNG.

Due to the nature of RNG, our actual DPS can be difficult to pin down, but, yes, we are a bit low at this point - or at least low in our ability to control our DPS.

As has become apparent in discussions thus far, Eclipse is clearly the prime method for tweaking DPS to, if nothing else, make it more consistent.

There have been several good suggestions so far, and I will make a post here soon compiling them and adding a few more than I think are feasible.

Thanks again to everyone that posted their logs, I really do appreciate it.

I would really like the CD on eclipse to show as a debuff on myself. I feel dirty having to get a mod to track one thing that is an obviously necessary piece of information.

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As I've said a few times, it's pretty tricky to calculate "real" dps in Ulduar because there are so few Patchwerk-like fights. That is actually to some extent by design because it gets players to focus more on "How do I maximize my dps on this fight?" rather than "What's my dps?" But it does make estimating who is high or low tricky for both you and us. It's awesome you are taking names, and I'll attribute that to knowing how to gear and play your class. We do worry that the Scorch change hurt Balance and Elemental since we ended up partially compensating the mages.

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This really just sounds like a way to keep players guessing whether their dps is balanced or not. Warriors and other hybrids (minus druids) are struggling across the board, but I guess it's hard to tell because of the variety of the fights. Wait, let me rephrase that. Warriors and other hybrids (minues druids) who aren't in BiS gear are struggling across the board, probably because Blizzard apparently balances classes around what end game raiders are wearing. This makes sense I guess, since so much of the population is in that level of gear?

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This really just sounds like a way to keep players guessing whether their dps is balanced or not. Warriors and other hybrids (minus druids) are struggling across the board, but I guess it's hard to tell because of the variety of the fights. Wait, let me rephrase that. Warriors and other hybrids (minues druids) who aren't in BiS gear are struggling across the board, probably because Blizzard apparently balances classes around what end game raiders are wearing. This makes sense I guess, since so much of the population is in that level of gear?

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You mean Feral Druids, right? =P

I wish I had time to meaningfully contribute to this thread, but I don't atm.

Regardless, I think this is an awesome thread, I support Murmurs' post, and am glad GC decided to contribute and listen.

I hope good things come of this!

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I would really like the CD on eclipse to show as a debuff on myself. I feel dirty having to get a mod to track one thing that is an obviously necessary piece of information.

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This is a very clean and simple way to eliminate the need for eclipse tracking mods, imo. Good idea.

Suggested methods for re-balancing Balance DPS:

Change Eclipse:

- Every Starfire you cast has a 20% cumulative chance of making your next Wrath do 30% more damage. So after SF1, the chance is 20%, but after SF5 the chance is 100%.

-Allows for a higher opportunity to benefit from Eclipse procs
-Still completely RNG based and does not promote any true form of skill

- Every Starfire cast increases Crit chance by 1%, every Wrath cast increase Haste by 1%. Both effects stack and have a duration of 10 to 15 seconds.

-Very simplistic and removes all concept of RNG and gives a flat, predictable bonus instead
-Does not create a very interesting or skilled rotation. Only one 'off choice' spell needs to be cast every 10 to 15 seconds.

- Change Eclipse to be based on 'charges' instead of a timed debuff allotting a specific number of casts to be effected by the proc.

-Increases the opportunity to benefit from Eclipse
-Does little to remove the major RNG factor of Eclipse, though it does lessen it
-Removes Haste scaling from Eclipse
-Would still have to have some form of time limit to prevent 'chaining' Eclipse or buffing pre-fight

- Change Wrath's portion of Eclipse to be 100% chance on Crit instead of 60%.

-Removes the larger portion of Eclipse's RNG
-Still does little to help with mobility to making use of Eclipse

- Change Eclipse to be two separate 'on use' abilities that share a 30 second cooldown with each other

-Removes the concept of 'spell twisting'
-Allows for the best use of Eclipse buffs

- Change Eclipse to add a stackable buff to Starfire and Wrath - such as each Wrath Crit increases Starfire's chance to Crit by X%. The effects don't have a shared cooldown, thus the two are theoretically chained together

- Allows for better use of Eclipse procs
- Less RNG dependent
- Promotes spell twisting
- Has the possibility to be abused in un-intended ways (although I don't think this is a major concern)

Give Balance Druids a new spell

- Add in a Mind Blast styled spell that has a short cooldown and has it damage dependent upon Insect Swarm and Moonfire on the target

- Add in a Conflag style spell that consumes either Insect Swarm or Moonfire

- Add in a new spammable nuke that is not linked to Eclipse for use during times when the Druid does not wish to proc Eclipse.

Adjust Wrath's cast time

- Change the current Major Glyph for Wrath to increase damage by 40% and the cast time by .5 seconds

- Add in a Minor Glyph for Wrath to increase damage by 35% and the cast time by .5 seconds

- Change Starlight Wrath to increase Wrath's damage by 7% per point instead of reducing the cast time by .1 seconds per point.

Adjust Improved Moonkin Form

- Instead of 30% Spirit into Spell Power, change it to 15% Spirit into Spell Power and 15% Spirit into Critical Strike Rating

- Add in a Glyph to give Improved Moonkin Form an addition Spirit conversion - either more Spell Power or Critical Strike Rating

Boost DoT Damage

- Allow insect Swarm and Moonfire to Crit.

Shadowbadger, an EU Balance Druid, made a post on TMR in response to this thread, I'm quoting it here for him. :)

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We think Balance dps is a little low on live, but changing Improved Moonkin Form to 30% Spirit to Spellpower in 3.1.2 should be something like a 5% spellpower boost to raid-buffed druids, which should be around a 5% dps increase. YMMV.

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Whilst I welcome the change to spirit I think this shows how much Blizzard are out of tune with what is actually going on. Most Ulduar raiding Moonkin are going to be on or near 2.8k SP without having to push much and some will be higher. 5% of this spell power is 140. In order to get 140 spell power from the additional 15% conversion from spirit you would need 933 spirit, you would lose a massive amount of DPS going that high. Point for point even after the buff spirit will still be somewhere in the region of 2-3 times worse than crit and haste

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Not to derail this thread at all. It's a very interesting read. I have a lvl 74 boomkin I played as my main throughout BC so don't ignore me b/c I'm posting on My DK.

Balance Druids have big pvp issues currently. I believe a possible answer to them is a talent deep (very deep) in the balance tree that simply allows the moonkin to cast instant cyclones. We suffer greatly to melee on us and really have almost no escape options.

I thought this might be grossly OP initially but cyclone has very hard diminishing returns. Meaning a moonkin can't spam it and lock people out of their char...... in fact 3 casts of it would be equal to the duration of a rogues blind if timed back to back. It also can not be cast on multiple targets.

Again it would need to be VERY deep in the balance tree to prevent mainly resto from getting it. I'm talking the talent would be stacked aside earth and moon and would cost 3 talent points itself each reducing the cast of cyclone by .5 seconds to ultimately making it instant. Due to the high point cost and it's location putting it out of reach...... not only would the druid have to make sacrifices to his damage/sustained damage to get it but Resto druids (who would be out-of-this-world OP with this) would be unable to pick it up. Spending that many points in the balance tree to get this proposed talent would insure all druids who do spec for it are indeed full bore balance druids. Feral wouldn't have it either obviously.

Just a thought. I don't think it would make boomkins OP at all considering how weak the class is in pvp. Laughably weak right now. But I also don't think it would tip the scales too far in making balance druids too strong either. They'd still have a myriad of flaws and weaknesses other classes can exploit..... like the fact all meaningful damage in pvp from a boomkin comes from casted spells. considerably more so than other casters.

Like this idea? Please comment

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Like this idea? Please comment

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Cyclone ---> Wind up Starfire instant cyclone ---> Wind up Starfire instant cyclone ---> Starfire. It would be fun to completely hose people in 1v1, but only rogues are allowed to do that.

I like those ideas Murmers. Would help a lot.

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- Add in a Minor Glyph for Wrath to increase damage by 35% and the cast time by .5 seconds

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I appreciate your effort but some of these suggestions (like the above) are the most ridiculous things I've ever seen. You don't fix haste cap issues by making minor glyphs that increase damage of nukes by 35%.

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I appreciate your effort but some of these suggestions (like the above) are the most ridiculous things I've ever seen. You don't fix haste cap issues by making minor glyphs that increase damage of nukes by 35%.

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Yes, but you do fix haste caps by increasing the cast time of the spell, as he suggested.

Its really nice to read a constructive boomkin thread these days.

I really like the ideas of a more decisive choice regarding eclipse, more a number of reasons. One of the things that I really dislike about eclipse currently is not really the RNG of activating the talent but the fact that a balance druid has no control on whether or not when eclipse has a chance to proc the talent a druid cannot decide to have it not proc. Sorry its a bit confusing to explain but take this for example; doing 3-D sarth, prior to a dragon coming down I am scared to cast any spells on Sartharion for fear of procing eclipse.

A more relevant example could be something like XT, if I have a corner to watch the spawning adds and I single target them, I don't want eclipse to proc, it is a waste and skews dps because we dont get to make full use of our "main" dps talent. I don't really like the idea of activating a spell like eclipse, but a mechanic that allows a druid to control a little bit more of when the ability can and can not proc would be nice.

As for the current state of our dps, I have to agree with murmurs, (no offence to the balance druid community, because there are some very good players) but when it comes to raiding guilds pushing content, balance druids executing seamless, perfect rotations, can not keep up with dks, mages, locks etc. etc.

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Yes, but you do fix haste caps by increasing the cast time of the spell, as he suggested.

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The issue with slowing wrath down, is then it's just Starfire 2.0.


I think keeping it's speed is part of the flavor for Wrath.



Translate 'wasted' haste into a equivalent damage increase to Wrath, lets it keep the speed.

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I appreciate your effort but some of these suggestions (like the above) are the most ridiculous things I've ever seen. You don't fix haste cap issues by making minor glyphs that increase damage of nukes by 35%.

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I have done the math several times over.

In order for Wrath to deal the same level of DPS that it currently does, but have a cast time of 2 seconds instead of 1.5, it needs to have it's damage increased by 35%.

There is no other means of fixing our Haste problems with Wrath save for changing Nature's Grace to be a replica of Ignite.

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P.S. That's a major glyph idea, you're a fool for thinking it would make minor. If you want to fix the haste cap on Wrath - Don't hit it.

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Minor Glyphs, generally, do not have any real impact on DPS. Adjusting Wrath's cast time by .5 seconds and increasing it's damage by 35% yields approximately the exact same DPS as you would see with a 1.5 second cast time. As a Major Glyph, this would be completely pointless. Hence why the Major Glyph suggestion increases Wrath's damage by 40% - this is actually a net gain in DPS.

I'm not quite sure if you fully understand Balance Druid mechanics. It simply isn't possible for a Druid to not cast Wrath, in fact GC has made it very clear all the way since Beta of WotLK that Blizzard designs Balance Druids towards using both Starfire and Wrath.

You are not in exceptional gear and due to that are sub-400 Haste. Those of us in better gear have well over 400 Haste and therefore are hitting GCD problems with Wrath anytime Nature's Grace is up. When Heroism is up, Wrath has GCD issues. Any trinket or Haste effect (which there are several bosses in Ulduar that have Haste effects) also GCD caps Wrath horribly. This is an issue that needs to be fixed. Blizzard attempted to fix it in 3.1 with the change to Nature's Grace. It simply wasn't enough.

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The issue with slowing wrath down, is then it's just Starfire 2.0.


I think keeping it's speed is part of the flavor for Wrath.



Translate 'wasted' haste into a equivalent damage increase to Wrath, lets it keep the speed.

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I don't think this would ever be possible to code.

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I don't think this would ever be possible to code.

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I thought the same thing. It is however, a far more optimal solution if possible. The whole idea of adding glyphs to fix faulty game mechanics just seems very out of line. There are no glyphs like that in the game (especially minor ones).

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As I've said a few times, it's pretty tricky to calculate "real" dps in Ulduar because there are so few Patchwerk-like fights. That is actually to some extent by design because it gets players to focus more on "How do I maximize my dps on this fight?" rather than "What's my dps?" But it does make estimating who is high or low tricky for both you and us.

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Yeah just a heads up. Can you NOT do that for the next raid zone? I don't want every fight to be some inflated damage gimmick.