World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> 3.1.2 Ulduar Nerf

Valina

< Allied Antithesis Fo… >

Maelstrom

80. Re: 3.1.2 Ulduar Nerf 05/01/2009 02:24:58 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

You obviously never did raiding in BC or Vanilla. Raids are not supposed to be puggable. This is a game that was originally intended to take player skill, leadership, and coordination.

Blizzard's changing their minds about what raids should be. They want everyone to be able to experience raid content. Most likely all future raid content will be very easy on most of the bosses, with hard modes and later bosses there to please those who want more of a challenge.

Aavryn

< One Percent >

Kul Tiras

81. Re: 3.1.2 Ulduar Nerf 05/01/2009 02:25:01 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

No, the whole reason they did HARD MODE in BOTH versions was so that casual players could experience content whether they were in a 10 man or 25 man raid comp preference. YOU are the one projecting your own personal preferences for how 10 vs. 25 SHOULD be and stating it as if it were Blizzard's position. Blizzard doesn't need a spokesman; they have already communicated in no unclear terms, in words and in actions, that the line between easy and hard isn't 10 and 25. It's regular and hard mode.

My own projection of how it works is due to the fact that Blizzard has stated in the past that players that progressed through 10 man naxx will have the gear to do 10 ulduar, and that the players that did 25 naxx will have the gear to do 25 Ulduar. NOT that the players that did 10 naxx can go into 25 Ulduar, or that the players that did 25 Naxx are going to get many upgrades in 10 ulduar.

I am basing my perception of difficulty based on the level of gear obtained.

I am CDO...that's like OCD, but the letters are alphabetized like they should be.

Invitro

< Facta non Verba >

Bladefist

82. Re: 3.1.2 Ulduar Nerf 05/01/2009 02:25:52 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Are you actually trying to use statistics as some kind of justification for using slippery slope arguments?

Oh yeah i am using hardcore statistics right now. You couldnt tell?

Aavryn

< One Percent >

Kul Tiras

84. Re: 3.1.2 Ulduar Nerf 05/01/2009 02:27:17 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
the nerfs happened cause most people got lazy and spoiled with naxx. Hell even my guild was so use to going in naxx AOEing trash can clearing all the wings in one night. Loot was being handed out like candy. almost everyone had their main and offspec sets. right before Ulduar came out we were running Naxx 25 in one night and pretty much DEing everything.

We stepped into Ulduar and almost no one remembered how to CC trash. We wiped 4 or 5 times on the trash in front of ignis. It sucked.

Same thing with us. And now we are getting pretty damn good at it. Because we wiped, and we got back up, and we progressed THROUGH it. This is the first time in wotlk that you NEED coordination and CC on trash, and its awesome imo.

I am CDO...that's like OCD, but the letters are alphabetized like they should be.

Osmeric

< Sword of the Spirit >

Azjol-Nerub

85. Re: 3.1.2 Ulduar Nerf 05/01/2009 02:27:55 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
It's not that ZOMG ULDAR IS TEH HARD. It's becuase that boss that was supposed to be doing X is instead doing 2X.

Or because the boss was supposed to beatable by X% of the raids geared at average ilvl Y after Z attempts, but it wasn't coming close to that. Blizzard cannot precisely model what actual customers will do on new content (the PTR cannot tell them), they can only set targets for that performance, then adjust the content until the performance is close to where they want it.

If Blizzard listens to customer feedback at all, it's the feedback given when people quit. Forum QQ can be spewed at near zero cost, so it has low credibility.

Gorbache

< Exalted >

Runetotem

87. Re: 3.1.2 Ulduar Nerf 05/01/2009 02:29:22 PM PDT

It's sad that they are nerfing Ulduar already... they could have waited a month or two before doing so to let guild who wanted a challenge to have some. The guild I'm in we're slowly progressing in Ulduar so it's not that it is too hard. We're not hardcore at all and don't raid that much during the week, but we know to not stay in fire and move out when you get gravity bomb (takes some people a few tries to get it, but they end up doing it after a while ;))

About hardcore, I've been in a hardcore guild and at the opposite of what people think, most people in that guild were over 25 years old and most of them had a job. They cared about downing the content, the epics that comes with it were second to progression.

Aavryn

< One Percent >

Kul Tiras

88. Re: 3.1.2 Ulduar Nerf 05/01/2009 02:30:13 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
It's sad that they are nerfing Ulduar already... they could have waited a month or two before doing so to let guild who wanted a challenge to have some. The guild I'm in we're slowly progressing in Ulduar so it's not that it is too hard. We're not hardcore at all and don't raid that much during the week, but we know to not stay in fire and move out when you get gravity bomb (takes some people a few tries to get it, but they end up doing it after a while ;))

About hardcore, I've been in a hardcore guild and at the opposite of what people think, most people in that guild were over 25 years old and most of them had a job. They cared about downing the content, the epics that comes with it were second to progression.

Thank you.

I am CDO...that's like OCD, but the letters are alphabetized like they should be.

Xanitos

< Lost Twilight >

Kirin Tor

90. Re: 3.1.2 Ulduar Nerf 05/01/2009 02:30:22 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

My own projection of how it works is due to the fact that Blizzard has stated in the past that players that progressed through 10 man naxx will have the gear to do 10 ulduar, and that the players that did 25 naxx will have the gear to do 25 Ulduar. NOT that the players that did 10 naxx can go into 25 Ulduar, or that the players that did 25 Naxx are going to get many upgrades in 10 ulduar.

I am basing my perception of difficulty based on the level of gear obtained.

Then your perception of Difficullty is flawed.

Before Ulduar, the Hardest encounter was a 10man. Numbers do not tell the whole story.

In fact, the Entire first Tier of Raiding should pretty much be ignored when it comes to how things were supposed to work. 10 man stream and a 25man stream can't be established properly when they are tuned around the same gear (5man heroics). Only once they got off the ground could they actually carry through.This is one of the contributing factors to most 25man encounters being much easier, and the T7 25mans awarded far better gear for the Effort invested.

Ulduar is there to rectify that now that we have two gear streams established.

Q u o t e:
Just a daily reminder to pay attention to your kids. Otherwise, someone else has to.

Palehoof on Super-ranty threads

Resheph

< Grateful Dead >

Bloodscalp

91. Re: 3.1.2 Ulduar Nerf 05/01/2009 02:30:42 PM PDT

BAAAAWWWWWW stfu srsly.

10/25 are DIFFERENT progression 10 is for smaller guilds not supposedly easier blah blah 25 is for larger guilds.

HARD MODE IS FOR EPEEN ...jesus just go the eff away already.

i used to raid in 40 man days it was fun but like someone said it was a second job. THIS WAY IS MUCH BETTER

casuals can complete everything on normals and you SECOND JOBBERS can do hard mode.

WHERE IS THE CONFUSION?!

SIGNATURE!

Savanti

Haomarush

92. Re: 3.1.2 Ulduar Nerf 05/01/2009 02:31:24 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Your paranoid fantasies are not actually evidence, you know.

My evidence was guilds were already beating these encounters before the nerfs. Why would they nerf it then? You aren't very bright are you?

Poonter

< bbq bonanza allstars >

Shadowmoon

94. Re: 3.1.2 Ulduar Nerf 05/01/2009 02:31:44 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
BAAAAWWWWWW stfu srsly.

10/25 are DIFFERENT progression 10 is for smaller guilds not supposedly easier blah blah 25 is for larger guilds.

HARD MODE IS FOR EPEEN ...jesus just go the eff away already.

i used to raid in 40 man days it was fun but like someone said it was a second job. THIS WAY IS MUCH BETTER

casuals can complete everything on normals and you SECOND JOBBERS can do hard mode.

WHERE IS THE CONFUSION?!

You suck at this game.

Just letting you know.

Shaelle

< Synêrgy >

Galakrond

95. Re: 3.1.2 Ulduar Nerf 05/01/2009 02:33:01 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Same thing with us. And now we are getting pretty damn good at it. Because we wiped, and we got back up, and we progressed THROUGH it. This is the first time in wotlk that you NEED coordination and CC on trash, and its awesome imo.

I remember those days!

I also remember hearing, "crap, we don't have 4 mages on - we'll be stopping early tonight unless <insert mage_3843> logs on."

I also remember a certain boss encounter in Everquest where 6 enchanters were needed for CC. Fun times - but only if you had 6 enchanters online, geared, and attuned. At least it required CC! that made it fun!

Something witty is supposed to go here.

Nanadin

Silvermoon

96. Re: 3.1.2 Ulduar Nerf 05/01/2009 02:34:12 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
My own projection of how it works is due to the fact that Blizzard has stated in the past that players that progressed through 10 man naxx will have the gear to do 10 ulduar, and that the players that did 25 naxx will have the gear to do 25 Ulduar. NOT that the players that did 10 naxx can go into 25 Ulduar, or that the players that did 25 Naxx are going to get many upgrades in 10 ulduar.

I am basing my perception of difficulty based on the level of gear obtained.

Why does the gear obtained have ANYTHING whatsoever to do with difficulty?

The bosses in 25 have more health. They do more damage. That only makes the encounter more difficult if you don't get to bring more healers and more dps. The mechanics may be slightly different (mind control from KT on 25 for example). That doesn't necessarily mean higher difficulty, it's just a different encounter tuning for a more diverse raid makeup. Ask anyone who has done both 10 man and 25 man OS 3D which one is more difficult. It's not as cut and dry as you suggest.

You are advancing your own opinion of whether raid should be puggable based on a flawed notion that "greater # of participants required == greater difficulty". It's not true, it has NEVER been true, and Blizzard has in fact refuted this notion time and time again. Remember when ZA first came out? Way harder for T4 geared folks than SSC. Ulduar10 is way harder for T7 geared folks than Naxx25. The people blitzing through Ulduar10 are Naxx25/EoE25 geared. Good for them. But their gear is overtuned for Ulduar10, not because Naxx25 was more difficult to farm for 5 months than Naxx10 would have been, but exactly because there is a parallel progression path for 10 and 25 and they went around it. Again, good for them. They did nothing wrong. But false conclusions drawn about Blizzard's design intent from this reality and presented as fact are no less specious.

Kirielle

< Spirit of Renewal >

Shadow Council

97. Re: 3.1.2 Ulduar Nerf 05/01/2009 02:34:13 PM PDT

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=16473765044&pageNo=3&sid=1#47

Bornakk sums up Blizzard's views on the changes pretty well in this thread. See post #47.

Savanti

Haomarush

98. Re: 3.1.2 Ulduar Nerf 05/01/2009 02:34:19 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Or because the boss was supposed to beatable by X% of the raids geared at average ilvl Y after Z attempts, but it wasn't coming close to that. Blizzard cannot precisely model what actual customers will do on new content (the PTR cannot tell them), they can only set targets for that performance, then adjust the content until the performance is close to where they want it.

If Blizzard listens to customer feedback at all, it's the feedback given when people quit. Forum QQ can be spewed at near zero cost, so it has low credibility.

But why nerf it so early if that is the case? Others learn faster is all. Let the people that learn slower clear it slower. No need to nerf it if guilds are clearing it. Maybe after a month of VERY low success rates but not after a fricken week.
Its bull !@@* plain and simple.

Zarhym

Blizzard Poster

99. Re: 3.1.2 Ulduar Nerf 05/01/2009 02:34:21 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
I understand that you guys feel the need to include the casual players in ingame...but nerfing 25 mans are unnecessary. Yes, there are high end guilds that have cleared it, and there are a ton of guilds that can't kill razorscale. But that's not because the bosses are too hard. Its because the players aren't good enough. Naxx (and you all know it is true) was so easy compared to anything in Burning Crusade that players have been pampered into one shotting bosses and if they have to spend more than one night on it, they cry. I have honestly been loving progressing through Ulduar. Our guild has done everything except Mirimon, General Vexus, Freya, and Yogg, and we are by no means a high end raiding guild. But we don't go in there and one shot it like we did with naxx. We go in, and we progress. We know that if we don't run out with the Gravity Bomb, we are going to kill the raid. We understand that if you stand in the fire on Razorscale you are going to die and fast. And if we can't dps Kologarn's right arm fast enough then people are going to die.

And that is the way it SHOULD be. You didn't stand in the raid on Solarian with the wrath debuff and not wipe half the raid. You couldn't run around in flame wreath and only take a small amount of damage. In Burning Crusade, if you messed up, then it was over, and that is the way it should be. Because when you mess up, you get in there, and you TRY again, and if you are a GOOD player, the second time around, you don't wipe the raid again. Ulduar was supposed to be on the same difficulty of SSC and TK...and it IS. You didn't see the majority of guilds get through those in a week. Don't expect it here. Let us progress.

I might be overeacting to the patch notes...I haven't gotten to see it in action yet, but our guild, and tons of guilds out there have proven that this content is doable. But from what I am seeing, all the ulduar changes in 3.1.2 are nerfs in the amount of damage different raid elements inflict. And there is no reason to. If players are having problems with the way it is now...then they need to run ulduar 10, or go back to naxx and get the rest of those upgrades. Leave Ulduar to the raids that have proven they can do it, and stop making content easy enough for everyone...because all it does is drive away the most commited and strongest players in the game.

It's a good post, Aavryn. Thank you for taking the time to write up some good feedback for us. :)

With that said, I think our views on raid content are at odds. If you're having difficulty comparing the raid content of Wrath to the raid content of Burning Crusade, it's because our philosophy changed a little bit. You say Ulduar's difficulty is supposed to be on par with SSC and TK, but that's not really true. The primary goal in this expansion -- and the reason we've implemented 10/25-player, and hard modes -- is to give as many people access to the raid content as possible. Just given the nature of raid dungeons, so many resources need to be poured into making them, from art, design, and story boarding, to programming and testing. It's a very intensive process and we want our players to experience the end result.

For this reason we're continuing with the philosophy that pick-up groups should have some level of success when raiding. Coordination and effort will still be necessary, as will the appropriate level of gear; but we don't want capable groups hitting brick walls, at least not within the first few boss encounters of Ulduar.

The difference in difficulty between 10-player and 25-player modes should also be fairly minimal. The distinction here is between the guilds that might not have the resources to more-than-double the size of their raid. 25-player content should be more difficult, but only incrementally. You'll find all the brick walls and incredibly challenging encounters in hard modes, and they're worth the effort and status for the experienced raiders.

I hope you don't take any of this to mean we expect anyone to waltz through Ulduar. That's not necessarily the case. You still need to know what you're doing and be appropriately geared for the fights. Even so, we want to get players in the door and have them feeling a natural, though slight progression in difficulty with each boss encountered.

When it comes to nerfing difficulty, we do intentionally tend to slightly over-tune things at the start. Our goal is to watch players of all levels of skill attempt each encounter, and then adjust the encounters according to the percentage of raids we expect to be killing specific bosses. While some may see this as us giving content to be people who don't deserve it, we feel it's a lot better than taking away content if we were, say, to make encounters too easy from the start and then buff them up after the fact.

The days of a marginal amount of players having a go at our raid dungeons are mostly over. We're continuing to brain storm ideas to keep the most-skilled raiders feeling challenged and rewarded, but we're going to continue ensuring that smaller guilds and players who haven't as much time to play each week get a reasonable chance to progress in each Wrath raid dungeon released.

Yeah, the streets rose in two perfect waves in the night
Crashes on my left, and one on my right
It's all fire and brimstone baby, so let's go outside

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