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Q u o t e:


Why dont you have 2pt7.5 in there from what i hear you still want the shoulders/chest from it...

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4t8 may end up BIS now because they buffed the bonus.

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Q u o t e:


4t8 may end up BIS now because they buffed the bonus.

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hopefully there are lots of t9 fights with multiple high hp adds. IS idol+keeping IS up on all of them+instant starfires=?????

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Q u o t e:
sticky

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we have too many stickies as it is.

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Q u o t e:

hopefully there are lots of t9 fights with multiple high hp adds. IS idol+keeping IS up on all of them+instant starfires=?????

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It's unfortunate that's the only way the IS idol becomes viable.

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Q u o t e:
I know. I just don't know why it keeps coming up as part of the arguement.

I haven't done the math on the gear. I tend to not number crunch gear since it gets really muddy for me but I really just get the feeling that something is being overvalued with Broodmother. Scale of Fates + Flare of heavens just seems like the better combo.

But like I said, I haven't done the math. I could be wrong.

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I agree that there is a lot of room to debate the relative value of trinkets. I said so on the list and I will say it again when ever I'm asked.

That said here is how I came up with my choice.

SP is weighted with a value of 1 as the standard. Crit is rated with a value of 0.8.

For the EotBM the value comes out this way (87*0.8)+125 = 194.6
For IotDG the value is a flat 200

I agree that the stacks are relatively easy to maintain, but a 100% uptime is unrealistic. At the very least it will take time to build the stacks. If you devalue the stacks by just 10% the relative values change this way: EotBM = 182.1, IotDS = 180. On top of that, If you consider the other benifits of Crit rating the EotBM edges IotDS a little bit.

I'm not saying that the EotBM is a far and a way better trinket then IotDS. They are relatively equal in my and really side grades in my opinion. However, if I had to drop one of them for FoH, I would drop IotDS.

Regarding the Scale of Fates:

I calculated its value this way: ((432+(20/120))*0.84)+125 = 185.48

I agree that this is a bit of an arbitrary valueation, but I can't come up with a better one. The highest possible valueation would assume a 2minute 20second fight where you get the trinket off twice for a value of: ((432+(40/140))*0.84)+125 = 228.68

However, this ignores some key issues.

1. None of the current fights are 2minutes and 20 seconds. This value depens on poping the trinket on cooldown and having the fight end right as the buff wears off. The longer the fight goes the value of the trinket decreases.

2. It assumes that the trinket is used on cooldown. In reality it is unlikely that this trinket is going to be popped every 2 minutes, or part of the buff will be wasted. Thus devaluing the buff.

Again with a value of 185 it is fairly close to the other trinkets we have talked about here. I wouldn't call anyone a noob for using the Scale of Fates instead of the EotBM or IotDS. Just the same way that I wouldn't call anyone a noob for using the EotS instead of SotE. They are relatively close in value and in my opinion it is somewhat a matter of preference.

I agree that this doesn't need to be stickied, but if you could include the Links to my list in your sticky that would be great.

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Q u o t e:
I agree that this doesn't need to be stickied, but if you could include the Links to my list in your sticky that would be great.

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I'll try to get around to it this weekend. As much as I hate it, I still feel compelled to do the math and double check it all myself.

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Q u o t e:
I'll try to get around to it this weekend. As much as I hate it, I still feel compelled to do the math and double check it all myself.

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Good luck. That list is a ton of data entry, however, I will update it as errors are discovered and additions are made.

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Q u o t e:


Good luck. That list is a ton of data entry, however, I will update it as errors are discovered and additions are made.

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You've done most of the work, I have a personal spreadsheet I use and I implement them in there, change my stats, implement them again, change my stats, implement them again, etc. I do this roughly 10 times to determine what really is an upgrade. It's a weird method that no one understands but it's not gone wrong for me.

FYI, I don't feel your values are correct. Every time I'd run a simulation I'd end up with values like this, in my pre-3.1 gear:

(in terms of how much dps 1 stat/rating adds)
SP: 1.4
Haste past the 400 soft-cap: .7(Solar) / 1.2 (Lunar)
Crit: .75

Hit was even harder then crit to model on a simulator (due to RNG) so I don't include it - I just assume it's more valuable then SP because all the math shows that.

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Q u o t e:
FYI, I don't feel your values are correct. Every time I'd run a simulation I'd end up with values like this, in my pre-3.1 gear:

(in terms of how much dps 1 stat/rating adds)
SP: 1.4
Haste past the 400 soft-cap: .7(Solar) / 1.2 (Lunar)
Crit: .75

Hit was even harder then crit to model on a simulator (due to RNG) so I don't include it - I just assume it's more valuable then SP because all the math shows that.

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Our Haste number is fairly similar (1.2/1.4 = 0.86) 0.84 and 0.86 are close enough for me.

I am interested in how you came up with yoru Crit number though.

Unfortunately I don't have time to detail my math right now, but bascially I've built a DPS calculator for both SF and Wrath using a Pre3.1 BiS geared moonkin and full raid buffs. My hypothtical moonkin has 2900 SP, 41% crit chance, 29.43% haste, and 99.96% chance to hit. The hit chance is so high to minimize the value of hit rating.

Then I basically see how each spells DPS changes if I add one point each stat in 4 separate equations. My numbers assume a Lunar rotation where SF is wighted at 75% and Wrath at 25%.

Are you including IS and MF in your model. If that is the case then Crit would be devalued in relation to SP, but i would wonder about your haste value then.

We will have to talk about this. Unfortunately I have a very busy week and it will take me some time to follow up.

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Q u o t e:


Our Haste number is fairly similar (1.2/1.4 = 0.86) 0.84 and 0.86 are close enough for me.

I am interested in how you came up with yoru Crit number though.

Unfortunately I don't have time to detail my math right now, but bascially I've built a DPS calculator for both SF and Wrath using a Pre3.1 BiS geared moonkin and full raid buffs. My hypothtical moonkin has 2900 SP, 41% crit chance, 29.43% haste, and 99.96% chance to hit. The hit chance is so high to minimize the value of hit rating.

Then I basically see how each spells DPS changes if I add one point each stat in 4 separate equations. My numbers assume a Solar rotation where SF is wighted at 75% and Wrath at 25%.

Are you including IS and MF in your model. If that is the case then Crit would be devalued in relation to SP, but i would wonder about your haste value then.

We will have to talk about this. Unfortunately I have a very busy week and it will take me some time to follow up.

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When you say a Solar model I'm confused - wouldn't Wrath be weighted higher then Starfire? My 1.2 number is for a Lunar model (Wrath proccing Eclipse), when I ran Solar tests haste was a lot worse.

I'm using a simulator, and I include IS and MF. Same method as you for the values (I just increase them by 1 and then look at the difference). This isn't very accurate for hit/crit though because an additional crit can either add amazing dps or even possibly *lower* dps (if it makes you proc Eclipse earlier then you want to, for example). So I'd run usually 100 of these and add up the crit/hit benefits for my numbers.

What I found with crit is that because Nature's Grace has such high uptime (usually 80+%), the value of additional crit actually lessened in 3.1. Consider the following:

Crit
Hit
Crit

vs

Crit
Crit
Crit

Pre-3.1, that extra crit in the middle adds the same benefit as any other crit. But with the Nature's Grace change, there's a fair amount of crits that won't add any additional haste.

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Q u o t e:


When you say a Solar model I'm confused - wouldn't Wrath be weighted higher then Starfire? My 1.2 number is for a Lunar model (Wrath proccing Eclipse), when I ran Solar tests haste was a lot worse.

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Sorry, I mistyped. I ment lunar. I will look at the rest of this later.

It's official my 3 favorite Moonkin are in the same thread
<3 Smo, Graylo, Wisp

Now if only Murmers would show up

But seriously Thanks for putting all this effort into it,
You guys make my life easier :)

Edit: Forgot the mighty Foofy

Indeed. Thanks guys, you do the work so my lazy ass doesn't have to :)

/bump

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Q u o t e:
It's official my 3 favorite Moonkin are in the same thread
<3 Smo, Graylo, Wisp

Now if only Murmers would show up

Edit: Forgot the mighty Foofy

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dude.....................................................................................................................

.................







Alamo's not in your top 5? jk

or are we only talking current players here....if we're putting together lists i wanna play too!

EDit:
and before i get flamed with "alamo wasn't a moonkin" i say

MOONKIN MAKES MOON STUFF

Alamo Retired

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Q u o t e:


4t8 may end up BIS now because they buffed the bonus.

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No good sir they buffed the 2t8 bonus the
4piece is still #%#*ting lol 30 extra dps and we get to mess up our rotation more?
Fyi they havn't changed the 4t8 since its creation iirc....

E: Not only that but its prob gonna be a retarded high internal CD
Making our 4p8 making dots crit would be nice though :D

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Q u o t e:


No good sir they buffed the 2t8 bonus the
4piece is still #%#*ting lol 30 extra dps and we get to mess up our rotation more?
Fyi they havn't changed the 4t8 since its creation iirc....

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They're buffing it next patch, check mmo.