For those of you unaware of the current mechanic for shadow priests, let me explain:

Priests have a tier 9 talent called Pain and Suffering which refreshes the duration of Shadow Word: Pain - one of our main DoTs - whenever we cast Mind Flay. Mind Flay is our main filler spell and accounts for about 40% of our overall damage in raids.

This is an absolutely amazing mechanic meaning we theoretically only have to cast SW:P once at the beginning of the fight and it continually refreshes taking into account any changes in spellpower. Thus, when a trinket procs, or we're in range of Totem of Wrath or whatever it may be, SW:P automatically ticks for more. It's a convenient and interesting part of the spec.

That said, what the Mind Flay refresh doesn't do is take every other type of damage increase into account. That is, any crit modifiers like Improved Scorch, the debuff from Loatheb, Totem of Wrath, etc. The crit chance of SW:P remains constant through the refreshes based on the initial cast. That means if you're without a Boomkin, when your elemental Shaman procs Elemental Oath, you have to recast SW:P.

Likewise, the Mind Flay refresh doesn't take percentage based damage modifiers into account either. That means we have to recast SW:P when we're standing in one of the Malygos sparks or, even worse, when we have 5 stacks of Shadow Weaving (increases the priest's shadow damage by 2% per stack). This has led to the introduction of complex cast sequences at the start of a fight to build Shadow Weaving to 5 stacks before applying SW:P instead of simply applying the DoT and leaving it to refresh. Also, there are mods specifically for tracking the ideal time to cast and recast SW:P based on the debuffs on the target. This should absolutely not be necessary.

My point is, if the Mind Flay refresh only takes spellpower into account causing shadow priests to have to recast the spell when a damage or crit modifier is present, what's the point of having it refresh at all?

Fix the Mind Flay refresh such that it takes all of the modifiers to Shadow Word: Pain into account and eliminate the need for various mods and ridiculous cast sequences to maximize damage.

/signed

Don't play a priest...

But I can safely say that would drive me up the wall...
/signed

Didn't know about this, actually..

But surely, /signed

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Q u o t e:
For those of you unaware of the current mechanic for shadow priests, let me explain:

Priests have a tier 9 talent called Pain and Suffering which refreshes the duration of Shadow Word: Pain - one of our main DoTs - whenever we cast Mind Flay. Mind Flay is our main filler spell and accounts for about 40% of our overall damage in raids.

This is an absolutely amazing mechanic meaning we theoretically only have to cast SW:P once at the beginning of the fight and it continually refreshes taking into account any changes in spellpower. Thus, when a trinket procs, or we're in range of Totem of Wrath or whatever it may be, SW:P automatically ticks for more. It's a convenient and interesting part of the spec.

That said, what the Mind Flay refresh doesn't do is take every other type of damage increase into account. That is, any crit modifiers like Improved Scorch, the debuff from Loatheb, Totem of Wrath, etc. The crit chance of SW:P remains constant through the refreshes based on the initial cast. That means if you're without a Boomkin, when your elemental Shaman procs Elemental Oath, you have to recast SW:P.

Likewise, the Mind Flay refresh doesn't take percentage based damage modifiers into account either. That means we have to recast SW:P when we're standing in one of the Malygos sparks or, even worse, when we have 5 stacks of Shadow Weaving (increases the priest's shadow damage by 2% per stack). This has led to the introduction of complex cast sequences at the start of a fight to build Shadow Weaving to 5 stacks before applying SW:P instead of simply applying the DoT and leaving it to refresh. Also, there are mods specifically for tracking the ideal time to cast and recast SW:P based on the debuffs on the target. This should absolutely not be necessary.

My point is, if the Mind Flay refresh only takes spellpower into account causing shadow priests to have to recast the spell when a damage or crit modifier is present, what's the point of having it refresh at all?

Fix the Mind Flay refresh such that it takes all of the modifiers to Shadow Word: Pain into account and eliminate the need for various mods and ridiculous cast sequences to maximize damage.

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First off, you're right. The crit chance of Shadow Word: Pain remains constant. 0%.

Second off, DoT's have always needed to be reapplied when a damage modifier is present. But, this does work both ways. Get 5 ticks of Shadow Weaving, pop your trinkets just before you drop a spark, apply PW:S, then keep refreshing it. Even though all the damage modifiers are gone, you are still getting the benefit. If you make it so you don't need to re-apply the DoT, then know that means that you're losing the ability to keep a super-charged PW:S up at all times, which is the whole point.

In fact, that's quite the difference between an average DPSer, and a great DPSer. Knowing how to maximize their DPS.

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Q u o t e:
First off, you're right. The crit chance of Shadow Word: Pain remains constant. 0%.

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...

I seriously stopped reading there.

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Q u o t e:


...

I seriously stopped reading there.

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Does it hurt your brain when knowledge, logic and common sense shine through the mucky-muck?

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Q u o t e:


Does it hurt your brain when knowledge, logic and common sense shine through the mucky-muck?

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Seriously, before talking about logic and common sense, can you try to learn what you are talking about?

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Q u o t e:


Does it hurt your brain when knowledge, logic and common sense shine through the mucky-muck?

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I always thought SW:P could crit... always thought it was a very weird DoT because it could do that...

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Q u o t e:


Seriously, before talking about logic and common sense, can you try to learn what you are talking about?

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A fine suggestion.

DoT's cannot crit. Go to http://www.wowwiki.com/DoT, and do a tiny bit of reading, especially in the Limitations section.

Now, care to re-think what you just said before I turn it around on you and make you look like a moron?

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Q u o t e:



I always thought SW:P could crit... always thought it was a very weird DoT because it could do that...

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It could not until today.

But it is affected by our % of crit, this is why OP is talking about having to recast it after the boomkin's aura of any crit modifier.

Hence, this is why I stopped reading our friend's Bostoncream post, because OP clearly not meant that SW:P was critting.

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Q u o t e:
A fine suggestion.

DoT's cannot crit. Go to http://www.wowwiki.com/DoT, and do a tiny bit of reading, especially in the Limitations section.

Now, care to re-think what you just said before I turn it around on you and make you look like a moron?

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Oh and FYI, they can now crit.

You rethink, and read this:

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Q u o t e:
Assume a Shadowform, increasing your Shadow damage by 15%, reducing Physical damage done to you by 15% and threat generated by 30%. However, you may not cast Holy spells while in this form except Cure Disease and Abolish Disease. Your Shadow Word: Pain, Devouring Plague, and Vampiric Touch abilities deal increased percentage damage equal to your spell critical strike chance.

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And then call others morons, kay?

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Q u o t e:
I always thought SW:P could crit... always thought it was a very weird DoT because it could do that...

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Nope. Death can crit (ouch if they don't die), but not Pain.

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Q u o t e:
I always thought SW:P could crit... always thought it was a very weird DoT because it could do that...

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SW:P and all priest DoTs can crit in 3.1. Prior to that, the damage of the DoT was simply increased based on the critical strike chance when it was cast. Thus, if you had 25% crit chance, SW:P ticked for 25% more.

And yes Boston, I realize that it allows us to roll damage modifiers longer than they otherwise would last, but frankly, it's annoying. On the flip side of allowing us to maximize damage by taking advantage of the mechanic, it also means we either have to recast SW:P each time a modifier increases or we have to wait until they're all present leading to an overall damage loss. Not to mention the cast sequence to build up stacks of Shadow Weaving prior to casting SW:P.

There's a difference between doing my best to maximize damage by exploiting mechanics and fixing a broken system. Druids used to be able to roll Lifebloom with massively increased spellpower by casting when a trinket procced. That is the reason Blizzard fixed spell refreshes taking spellpower into account. It doesn't seem like a large jump to me to say that the crit and damage modifiers are basically doing the same thing.

If Mind Flay is supposed to refresh Shadow Word: Pain, it should refresh everything that affects it.

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Q u o t e:
Oh and FYI, they can now crit.

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An apology will come if you can show me where it says that...

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Q u o t e:
You rethink, and read this:

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That's a damage modifier based on cirt chance. It's not a crit.

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Q u o t e:
And yes Boston, I realize that it allows us to roll damage modifiers longer than they otherwise would last, but frankly, it's annoying. On the flip side of allowing us to maximize damage by taking advantage of the mechanic, it also means we either have to recast SW:P each time a modifier increases or we have to wait until they're all present leading to an overall damage loss. Not to mention the cast sequence to build up stacks of Shadow Weaving prior to casting SW:P.

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It may be a little annoying to have to adjust your rotation a smidge, but I'll say this again, and try to explain it better. Let's say they read what you wrote and decide to change it. From now on, all SW:P ticks will re-adjust to whatever damage modifiers are present at the time of tick. (I believe that's what you're wanting, and correct me if I'm wrong about that.)

Yes, you won't have to re-apply the SW:P when you pop a trinket, or burst a spark. But that also means that as soon as the proc disappears, then your SW:P is going to hit for less in that instant. Which means that if all CD procs are an average of 10 seconds (reasonable estimation), then your SW:P (18 seconds long) is going to lose power halfway through before you even start to refresh it..

The way it currently is allows you to keep those damage modifiers at all times during the boss fight. So, is it an annoyance to adjust your rotation a bit to allow for this? Yes. But the damage you're not causing is much more if this were changed.

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Q u o t e:
It may be a little annoying to have to adjust your rotation a smidge, but I'll say this again, and try to explain it better. Let's say they read what you wrote and decide to change it. From now on, all SW:P ticks will re-adjust to whatever damage modifiers are present at the time of tick. (I believe that's what you're wanting, and correct me if I'm wrong about that.)

Yes, you won't have to re-apply the SW:P when you pop a trinket, or burst a spark. But that also means that as soon as the proc disappears, then your SW:P is going to hit for less in that instant. Which means that if all CD procs are an average of 10 seconds (reasonable estimation), then your SW:P (18 seconds long) is going to lose power halfway through before you even start to refresh it..

The way it currently is allows you to keep those damage modifiers at all times during the boss fight. So, is it an annoyance to adjust your rotation a bit to allow for this? Yes. But the damage you're not causing is much more if this were changed.

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DoTs critting is in the 3.1 patch notes. Specifically:

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Q u o t e:
Shadowform: Now reduces all damage taken by 15%, not just physical damage. Bonus damage from critical strike chance removed and replaced by the ability of those periodic damage spells to generate critical strikes.

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And yes, I realize this would probably be an overall damage loss, but frankly, that's outside the purvey of this discussion. There are numerous changes I'd like to see for shadow priest scaling, but that's getting into another thread.

The sole point of this discussion was to bring to light the fact that the Mind Flay refresh does not currently work the way the tooltip on Pain and Suffering says it should. Without testing by the EJ forums, this wouldn't be a known issue and frankly, I'd be willing to be the majority of shadow priests don't know that it even occurs.

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Q u o t e:
An apology will come if you can show me where it says that...

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mmo-champion.com:

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Q u o t e:
Shadowform: Now reduces all damage taken by 15%, not just physical damage. Bonus damage from critical strike chance removed and replaced by the ability of those periodic damage spells to generate critical strikes.

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Q u o t e:
That's a damage modifier based on cirt chance. It's not a crit.

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Even if OP said "the crit chance of SW:P" I think it was quite clear. You're just arguing over a word or 2 just for the heck of arguing.

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Q u o t e:
It may be a little annoying to have to adjust your rotation a smidge, but I'll say this again, and try to explain it better. Let's say they read what you wrote and decide to change it. From now on, all SW:P ticks will re-adjust to whatever damage modifiers are present at the time of tick. (I believe that's what you're wanting, and correct me if I'm wrong about that.)

Yes, you won't have to re-apply the SW:P when you pop a trinket, or burst a spark. But that also means that as soon as the proc disappears, then your SW:P is going to hit for less in that instant. Which means that if all CD procs are an average of 10 seconds (reasonable estimation), then your SW:P (18 seconds long) is going to lose power halfway through before you even start to refresh it..

The way it currently is allows you to keep those damage modifiers at all times during the boss fight. So, is it an annoyance to adjust your rotation a bit to allow for this? Yes. But the damage you're not causing is much more if this were changed

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All this makes sense, but having to check out all your buffs and see if this buff or that buff is there to recast it it's annoying. There is no logic reason into why it does not get refreshed properly. If I apply if and that my moonkin does not have his aura on, I am penalized if I did not notice it. My first MD and MF are both penalized because my SW:P is not on the target.

I don't think it is right on the other hand that I can just put a weapon with major +crit on it and pop a trinket and then just swap it back and benefit from it for the whole fight.

I am not the kind of person that wants to have an OP class, I want a balanced class, and I am pretty sure OP feels the same way. If fixing this, because it does requires a fix, gimps a little bit my class, I am pretty confident that Blizzard will do whatever it takes to take us back on track.

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Q u o t e:
DoT's cannot crit. Go to http://www.wowwiki.com/DoT, and do a tiny bit of reading, especially in the Limitations section.

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You should try getting your facts from the OFFICIAL PATCH NOTES instead of an unofficial wiki.

Several DoTs acquired crit chance during 3.0, many more acquired it in 3.1.

[edit: added 'more' to disambiguate]

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Q u o t e:

DoTs critting is in the 3.1 patch notes. Specifically:

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Thanks. Apologies to you and Sadiem.

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Q u o t e:
And yes, I realize this would probably be an overall damage loss, but frankly, that's outside the purvey of this discussion. There are numerous changes I'd like to see for shadow priest scaling, but that's getting into another thread.

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So, because you're not willing to adjust your rotation even slightly, you want them to implement something that will benefit your outdated roation, but cause Shadow Priests to loss quite a bit of DPS potential??

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Q u o t e:
The sole point of this discussion was to bring to light the fact that the Mind Flay refresh does not currently work the way the tooltip on Pain and Suffering says it should. Without testing by the EJ forums, this wouldn't be a known issue and frankly, I'd be willing to be the majority of shadow priests don't know that it even occurs.

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It's working EXACTLY like the tooltip says. Here's the tooltip, with 3 points in the talent:

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Q u o t e:
Your Mind Flay has a 100% chance to refresh the duration of your Shadow Word: Pain on the target, and reduces the damage you take from your own Shadow Word: Death by 30%

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It says nothing about damage modifiers. It only says that the duration is refreshed, not that the damage formula will be re-adjusted to compensate for any modifiers.

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Q u o t e:
All this makes sense, but having to check out all your buffs and see if this buff or that buff is there to recast it it's annoying. There is no logic reason into why it does not get refreshed properly. If I apply if and that my moonkin does not have his aura on, I am penalized if I did not notice it. My first MD and MF are both penalized because my SW:P is not on the target.

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Again, because you're unwilling to adjust your rotation, you want to gimp shadow priests. I have proven, and the OP reluctantly agreed, that having this implemented will cost a lot of DPS for shadow priests.

The bigger picture is that people get so fired up over something that they never take a step back and see what it truly means for it to be implemented.

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Q u o t e:
I don't think it is right on the other hand that I can just put a weapon with major +crit on it and pop a trinket and then just swap it back and benefit from it for the whole fight.

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Rather certain (this time) that you cannot swap gear during a fight.

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Q u o t e:
I am not the kind of person that wants to have an OP class, I want a balanced class, and I am pretty sure OP feels the same way. If fixing this, because it does requires a fix, gimps a little bit my class, I am pretty confident that Blizzard will do whatever it takes to take us back on track.

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This does not need "fixing", as it was never an intended function. If you would like to suggest that it be introduced, then you're well within your rights in this thread. But others may have a strong opinion about not doing it, especially when they realize what it would be costing them.

It says nothing about it, but it still modifies with spell power even if they do not say so.

I don't think it is right to have a class that can exploit something like that, and it's not a matter of adjusting it "slightly", perhaps you don't know anything about shadowpriest's ""rotations"" but yes, it is extremely annoying, and watching for every buff available in the raid to be up on me or on the target should not be part of that ""rotation"". I never denied that it would be a DPS loss, but I would rather have that loss fixed in another way than in a way that is waaayy too complicated for most players.

DPS potential from an exploit is bad IMO, if we need that exploit to be balanced, then I would rather have something else to balance it out.

Edit: and as far as I know you can swap weapons mid fight.