This might sound like a troll, but I am asking an honest question - I am posting on an alt to avoid my armory being dragged into the discussion, as many of you love to ignore points made by instantly bashing the character's armory.

Why do the "trybrids" (Such as Shaman, Druid and Paladin) not suffer a bigger penalty associated to their damage compared to the two-roll hybrids (Such as Warrior, Death Knight and Priest)?

Ghostcrawler used the idea that if they were full of DPS, that the hybrid could go heals and start healing instead - but this idea also has a flaw, if I play a Warrior or Death Knight and they are filled with Tanks / DPS - I cannot go heals. Yet, my Shaman / Druid / Paladin friend can fill all three rolls associated to the raid if it's required.

Why don't they suffer a harsher penalty then the two-roll hybrids?

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Q u o t e:
Why don't they suffer a harsher penalty then the two-roll hybrids?

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Because 3.1 introduces dual specs... meaning each hybrid will have access to up to two diverse specs inside an instance or BG, regardless of how many of the three roles they can fill in general.

Simple answer:
They aren't concerned that if 2 role hybrids dps doesn't have a handicap that raids won't take the class to instances. There will always be a spot for shamans, dk's, and priests as healers and tanks. The class won't be shut out of dps is not up to par.

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Q u o t e:
Yet, my Shaman / Druid / Paladin friend can fill all three rolls associated to the raid if it's required.

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Really I can tank? Sweet.

As for the topic the hybrid tax is for being able to perform multiple roles and it isn't based on the number of those roles.

So basically you want to rest of the hybrids to be crappy just because we have more options? Yeah that sounds like something I want to play.

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Q u o t e:
I agree with what you are saying.

But GC is a simple soul who likes to keep things simple. He is undeterred by things such as logic, facts, data, common sense, intelligent argument.....

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He's a scientist. He lives on logic, facts, data, common sense, and intelligent argument. He's also spelled out the current design goal many, many times. It's pretty simple.

if numberOfRoles > 1
DPS *= 0.95

There's no reason to further penalize three-role classes (Druids and Paladins). Giving them a 10% penalty would make them useless in a DPS role. And, we have dual-specs. They can only fill two rolls anyway.

Anyway, Shaman can only fill two roles. They can't tank.

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Q u o t e:
This might sound like a troll, but I am asking an honest question - I am posting on an alt to avoid my armory being dragged into the discussion, as many of you love to ignore points made by instantly bashing the character's armory.

Why do the "trybrids" (Such as Shaman, Druid and Paladin) not suffer a bigger penalty associated to their damage compared to the two-roll hybrids (Such as Warrior, Death Knight and Priest)?

Ghostcrawler used the idea that if they were full of DPS, that the hybrid could go heals and start healing instead - but this idea also has a flaw, if I play a Warrior or Death Knight and they are filled with Tanks / DPS - I cannot go heals. Yet, my Shaman / Druid / Paladin friend can fill all three rolls associated to the raid if it's required.

Why don't they suffer a harsher penalty then the two-roll hybrids?

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Well only paladins and druids actually have three roles. Shaman have 2 dps trees, just like a warrior.

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Q u o t e:
This might sound like a troll, but I am asking an honest question - I am posting on an alt to avoid my armory being dragged into the discussion, as many of you love to ignore points made by instantly bashing the character's armory.

Why do the "trybrids" (Such as Shaman, Druid and Paladin) not suffer a bigger penalty associated to their damage compared to the two-roll hybrids (Such as Warrior, Death Knight and Priest)?

Ghostcrawler used the idea that if they were full of DPS, that the hybrid could go heals and start healing instead - but this idea also has a flaw, if I play a Warrior or Death Knight and they are filled with Tanks / DPS - I cannot go heals. Yet, my Shaman / Druid / Paladin friend can fill all three rolls associated to the raid if it's required.

Why don't they suffer a harsher penalty then the two-roll hybrids?

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According to your logic a druid is a quadbrid...and would suffer a ridiculous dps penalty. If such a thing was instituted why ever bring a druid to dps?

Why would you ever have a trybrid dps?

In your model, your two role healer - priest, is then your ideal ranged dps/healing hybrid and your two role tanks - warrior/DK, become your ideal melee dps/tank hybrid. Your raid has all the flexibility it needs and your tanking/healing paladins/druids already bring those classes buffs.

If trybrids are 3rd class dps'ers, there's really no point to them being in a raid to dps at all.

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Q u o t e:
This might sound like a troll, but I am asking an honest question - I am posting on an alt to avoid my armory being dragged into the discussion, as many of you love to ignore points made by instantly bashing the character's armory.

Why do the "trybrids" (Such as Shaman, Druid and Paladin) not suffer a bigger penalty associated to their damage compared to the two-roll hybrids (Such as Warrior, Death Knight and Priest)?

Ghostcrawler used the idea that if they were full of DPS, that the hybrid could go heals and start healing instead - but this idea also has a flaw, if I play a Warrior or Death Knight and they are filled with Tanks / DPS - I cannot go heals. Yet, my Shaman / Druid / Paladin friend can fill all three rolls associated to the raid if it's required.

Why don't they suffer a harsher penalty then the two-roll hybrids?

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Druids can fill FOUR rolls.

Should they be penalized more than those classes that can do 3? Or 2?

Should they be a worse tank? A worst caster DPS? A lower-standard healer? A bad melee DPS spec?

If they make 3 roll hybrids and Druids worse because of that, why bring them if they are designed to do even less damage?

Why have a Paladin tank or a Bear tank if Warriors and DK's can do it all better? There would be no point. And I guarantee you people would view it that way and not bring those classes/specs.

GC explained it fairly comprehensively a month or so back...do a forum search. :D

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Q u o t e:


Pretty well said.

One way to explain it is this: If I play a paladin and no matter what I do I can't do the kind of dps I want (either because I need to L2P or I need better gear or Blizzard screwed up), then I always have the option to respec as tanking or healing. If the rogue can't do the kind of dps she wants, her option is to go make a level 1 character.

Another way to explain it: The raid is forming and a lot of dps show up but not many healers. The paladin offers to respec as a healer. The rogue offers to go watch TV.

While technically the paladin might have more chances than a warrior or shaman to "not be useless" we don't think a penalty at that kind of level is necessary. You either have the option or not. Having more options is better, but not by as much.

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But, doesn't that make it so people want to reroll? isn't what you devs want anyways? For people to reroll?

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Q u o t e:


Pretty well said.

One way to explain it is this: If I play a paladin and no matter what I do I can't do the kind of dps I want (either because I need to L2P or I need better gear or Blizzard screwed up), then I always have the option to respec as tanking or healing. If the rogue can't do the kind of dps she wants, her option is to go make a level 1 character.

Another way to explain it: The raid is forming and a lot of dps show up but not many healers. The paladin offers to respec as a healer. The rogue offers to go watch TV.

While technically the paladin might have more chances than a warrior or shaman to "not be useless" we don't think a penalty at that kind of level is necessary. You either have the option or not. Having more options is better, but not by as much.

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I would argue that chosing to respec from ret to holy w/o the necessary holy gear is pretty much useless. At least in a raid environment.

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Q u o t e:


Pretty well said.

One way to explain it is this: If I play a paladin and no matter what I do I can't do the kind of dps I want (either because I need to L2P or I need better gear or Blizzard screwed up), then I always have the option to respec as tanking or healing. If the rogue can't do the kind of dps she wants, her option is to go make a level 1 character.

Another way to explain it: The raid is forming and a lot of dps show up but not many healers. The paladin offers to respec as a healer. The rogue offers to go watch TV.

While technically the paladin might have more chances than a warrior or shaman to "not be useless" we don't think a penalty at that kind of level is necessary. You either have the option or not. Having more options is better, but not by as much.

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So........ you've completely reverted your whole stance when first releasing WotLK? Instead of "Hybrids will be much more competitive than they were in TBC" its, "Hybrids should respec lawl".

Give me a freaking break.

One way to explain this it is this: If Hybrids and Pures do the same DPS, raid leaders will be compelled to invite players based on other merrits. Such as their skill or ability to stay alive in a raid scenario. Or how well they fit into the guild. Or whether or not they are fun to play with.

Instead you've opted to promote stacking of Pure DPS classes once your raid is fully buffed. In one case you have balance and equality. In another case you have obvious bias and raid stacking. Hmmmmm

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Q u o t e:


I would argue that chosing to respec from ret to holy w/o the necessary holy gear is pretty much useless. At least in a raid environment.

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Seeing as plate spellpower gear is on a class of its own, it's fairly inconceivable that a retribution paladin who has done a fair amount of raiding will not have access to potent healing gear. You don't need BiS to perform a role adequately.

I am in by no means a hardcore raiding guild, and pally plate continues to be sharded every week.

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Q u o t e:


I would argue that chosing to respec from ret to holy w/o the necessary holy gear is pretty much useless. At least in a raid environment.

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You could also argue that you are good at DPS but not good at tanking or healing. But Blizz is theorycrafting (as they've said we should not) that roles you aren't very good at and aren't an asset to the raid at are still better than someone who doesn't have those options. In theory they are right. In practice...not as right.

Do you take a tank who isn't very good? Not usually. Are you going to make the exception because he's a good retadin? Maybe, but you're still better off with a dedicated tank and will probably recruit with that in mind. Do you then say "well, they should recruit paladins that are good at tanking, and DPS or healing and DPS..." but then you're changing the nature of the conversation to fit the model you want to see.

And I'm just playing devil's advocate here, I don't particularly worry about the hybrid penalty keeping me out of a raid just like "pures" shouldn't worry about the lack of a significant penalty keeping them out.

Its bad players that need forced game mechanics to guarantee them slots. (Just like players will try to game a DKP system or "rig" it so that they can get loot over someone else.)

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Q u o t e:

While technically the paladin might have more chances than a warrior or shaman to "not be useless" we don't think a penalty at that kind of level is necessary. You either have the option or not. Having more options is better, but not by as much.

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I agree with this. Just because you don't have 3 unique roles you can spec into, doesn't mean you you should do more dps/healing than other hybrids who do.

Besides, I think the community is taking the '5% damage tax' a little to serious. I doubt we will ever see a time where this is exactly true, that is unless classes become super homogenized and boring. It just should be noted that pure dps classes should have the capability to do more dps than a hybrid.

^Agreed. Even using elemental gear as a resto shaman is a bad idea(for raids at least). I would keep going OOM. Also respecing is a pain and expensive. Hybrids do not deserve to be penalized more for respecing for raids.

It's not a penalty, it's a buff to dps classes. And that bonus is still an experiment--which is something those people who ask for it to be removed seem to forget. It's not even clear if its working. It Warlocks and Rogues have reached embarrassingly low levels and mages and hunters are hardly dominating census numbers. If the five-percent number was such a great advantage, we would be above and not well behind paladins. Were druids easier to level we might be behind druids, too, but people get put off running around in bear form.

Of course, blizzard could have a very different view as they have a more accurate view of class representation in a raid. And census numbers can, indeed, vary for many reasons. Right now, GC has said there's no problem so I'm giving him the benefit of a doubt.

I feel the right answer here is that blizzard is experimenting with a new system. It might work, it might not.