World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Excessive Design Overlap for Warlocks/Mages

Valgaav

< First to Die >

Zul'jin

60. Re: Excessive Design Overlap for Warlocks/Mag 04/10/2009 12:01:59 PM PDT

this just goes for every class in general for their roles.

the only thing warlocks still have unique to them are healthstones and a doomguards cripple, period.

soulstones? reincarnation, battle rez

coe? deathknights boomkins

isb? mages (and yes i know they had it before us)

its kind of sad that classes are losing their flavor.

even when warlocks had their useless moments i always still got into raids, but i can see how some guilds can be like that.

because its so much fun to be an engineer and see a jewelcrafter drive away on what should be your mechano hog - Mordldred, Archimonde.

Lesath

< The Usual Suspects >

Cenarius

61. Re: Excessive Design Overlap for Warlocks/Mag 04/10/2009 12:02:36 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Funny, because I know healers who don't drink between trash. Of course I do get the occasional healer who misses the table at the start of the raid and asks for one before the boss pull even though there is a feast available.

Cooking is very cost efficient and provides an extra buff with feasts.

Just because you know some healers that don't drink between trash, doesn't mean that all healers don't drink in between trash. Again, with 3.1, mana regeneration is taking a hit.

It's not cost-efficient to throw down a Feast after every trash pull so that some healers can regen mana, and not nearly as cost efficient for healers to buy their own water.

Stop being overdramatic. You're not convincing anybody but yourself.

[ Post edited by Lesath ]

Ejabank

Thunderhorn

62. Re: Excessive Design Overlap for Warlocks/Mag 04/10/2009 12:03:08 PM PDT

Speaking as an Afflock I'd much rather have the old ISB back. Losing that talent pretty significantly reduced the value of crit for us...

Rantings of the Afflicted, a Warlock blog: http://draele.blogspot.com
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Thunderhorn&n=Draele

Chrisfarley

Wildhammer

63. Re: Excessive Design Overlap for Warlocks/Mag 04/10/2009 12:08:10 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Agreed, main reason I skipped out on it and went back to Frost.
I won't raid Arcane for the very reason you state, it's inconsistent at best and relies heavily on RNG procs and that to me doesn't really equal 'skill' either.

Actually arcane is quite consistent, unlike hot streak, missile barrage smooths out quite nicely in a relatively short period of time and it's not as essential to max dps.

Any inconsistencies in arcane are primarily due to poor mana management. Playing too aggressive or too conservative is what hurts arcane dps.

Overg

< Hoax >

Deathwing

64. Re: Excessive Design Overlap for Warlocks/Mag 04/10/2009 12:08:38 PM PDT

I don't have any real problem with what the OP is saying. People complain enough about the homoginization of the classes in general with respect to the shared buff system. This does seem especially pronounced with respect to mages and warlocks. From a lore perspective it makes a certain amount of sense, but from a "different classes are different" perspective, it might be nice to randomize the utility a bit so that mages and warlocks aren't so similar. It's not actually something that bothers me at the moment, but I wouldn't be outraged if Blizzard swapped some buffs around or at least kept this in the back of their minds in the future.

Magisterial

< Shattered Oath >

Emerald Dream

65. Re: Excessive Design Overlap for Warlocks/Mag 04/10/2009 12:09:18 PM PDT

While you do make the point that there's design overlap, I just don't see warlocks eclipsing a mage.

We're just similar. So, a warlock can summon, but a mage can decurse. A warlock can make healthstones, but a mage can make biscuits. Does anyone really want to raid without biscuits? Does anyone really want to raid without summons?

Seems like there's a pretty good reason to bring both.

Ilnara

< Rival >

Ysondre

66. Re: Excessive Design Overlap for Warlocks/Mag 04/10/2009 12:09:50 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Every hybrid does less dps than a Pure now, except Feral, but they get moved down every push. Our utitliy is greatly over ridden by many classes, so much with a Meta lock I dont even have to put down Totems wiht no DPS lost.

Class mechanic fail imo.

Like i said mages are #2 and competive to be #1 skill permitting because sims to take in skill.

Listen, I agree, it's a failure of class mechanics, just because you think we're "competitive" in DPS alone doesn't mean that things are 'equal' or 'equivalent' between Hybrids and DPS however and that we don't have legitimate ideals or complaints about how to improve it.

Remember, one reason Frost is gimped, so they say is because of the 'other utility' it brings. Namely the best AOE in ImpBlizz, Slowdown debuf, the ability to freeze trash that tries to eat your healer's or people that can't manage their aggro.

Now, with Hybrids offering so much utility both to their groups and the individuals playing them, via their greater viability to 'bring whats needed without much sacrifice', then why are they ANYWHERE NEAR US ON A DPS METER AT ALL? Why are we only "Competitive" ? Why aren't we blowing them away without question? The ONLY thing we do is DPS.. wedo nothing ELSE at all other than DPS.

IMHO no hybrid class should put out better DPS in their best tree than me in my worst tree.

Now everyone here will throw and instant hissy fit for me even saying that.. yet that is pretty much exactly what it's like in reverse. Hybrids are bringing better utility, and comparable DPS in their dedicated DPS trees than a the magus who are nothing BUT DPS specs.. and we get one tree that is "competitive", not absolute, not the best, only "competitive".

"Me like....Shiney"

"I'll kill a man in a fair fight. Or if I think he's going to start a fair fight."

"Being detached with hope is opposite from being invested with expectations" - Tseric

Magisterial

< Shattered Oath >

Emerald Dream

67. Re: Excessive Design Overlap for Warlocks/Mag 04/10/2009 12:12:20 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Remember, one reason Frost is gimped, so they say is because of the 'other utility' it brings.

Uh, the reason given has always been that it's too delicately balanced in PvP to increase its damage.

Lakme

< Malfurionbag >

Malfurion

68. Re: Excessive Design Overlap for Warlocks/Mag 04/10/2009 12:13:59 PM PDT

No, the op is right, Mages can be sat for Locks, so can almost every casters. It's not fair.

Your badness and complaints about it, is the problem I have.

Mage DPS is fine. Which is how you started your uneducated slanted rant.

There worth is droping, like the OP has sad. Mages are the last "pure" DPS, and Elemental is the last "buffbot" spec. They refuse to fix either as they change the raids. They improved your scale greatly, but only bring competitive DPS goes so far.

Like I said I never once said the OP was wrong. Im saying you are wrong.

You will never be happy. Go kill yourself. Acctually sharpen a turd to a point and stick it in your heart. Is that dark and brutal enough for you? ~Wafflestomp

Lilspark

< Gladius Dei >

Kilrogg

70. Re: Excessive Design Overlap for Warlocks/Mag 04/10/2009 12:15:16 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Just because you know some healers that don't drink between trash, doesn't mean that all healers don't drink in between trash. Again, with 3.1, mana regeneration is taking a hit.

It's not cost-efficient to throw down a Feast after every trash pull so that some healers can regen mana, and not nearly as cost efficient for healers to buy their own water.

Stop being overdramatic. You're not convincing anybody but yourself.

I'm not being over dramatic. Food tables as a utility isn't much. Unless your healers are under geared or your DPS is bad on trash, your healers aren't going through a lot of mana on trash. Hunters and warlocks have abilities to regain mana without sitting down to drink between trash.

However, even if our healers, warlocks, and hunters really had to drink along with the mages between trash, food tables would simply be a convenience utility for trash. It doesn't help you kill the boss (or trash) faster. It can be provided by a vendor or a profession. Trying to argue that food tables is sufficient utility that isn't overlapped by a warlock is folly.

Lilspark

< Gladius Dei >

Kilrogg

71. Re: Excessive Design Overlap for Warlocks/Mag 04/10/2009 12:25:44 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
this just goes for every class in general for their roles.

the only thing warlocks still have unique to them are healthstones and a doomguards cripple, period.

soulstones? reincarnation, battle rez

coe? deathknights boomkins

isb? mages (and yes i know they had it before us)

its kind of sad that classes are losing their flavor.

even when warlocks had their useless moments i always still got into raids, but i can see how some guilds can be like that.

I think his point is not that all the in-combat utility a mage brings can be provided by other classes, as it should be, but that it can be provided by one class.

Boomkins come close to doing this with warlocks. They provide something similar to soulstones and the same 13% spell damage buff. If they were capable of also providing something similar to demonic pact, they could heal in moonkin form (instead of providing health stones), and did the same amount of DPS as a warlock, then it would be the same comparison as the OP. Your examples are not the same.

Lilspark

< Gladius Dei >

Kilrogg

72. Re: Excessive Design Overlap for Warlocks/Mag 04/10/2009 12:36:12 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
While you do make the point that there's design overlap, I just don't see warlocks eclipsing a mage.

They eclipse a mage in the sense of in-combat utility the two classes provide, regardless if the utilities are feasible in the top DPS build or are the worst of their type. They both are capable of providing a crit debuff. They are both capable of providing replenishment. They are both capable of increasing the raid's intelligence. They are both capable of cc'ing a mind controlled player if the boss has that ability. Only one is capable of providing 13% spell damage debuff, increasing the raids spell damage through a different buff, providing healthstones that can be used during combat, providing a means to resurrect a fallen player, or is capable of increasing the raid's spirit.

However, I don't think he's arguing that everything the warlock provides that a mage doesn't should be nerfed, removed, or given to mages. I think he would prefer that something that warlocks don't provide, but another class does, should also be provided by mages. Examples could be a haste buff to the raid, or increasing +hit. Both of those can already be provided by other classes and aren't provided by warlocks. The problem is that those are two of the few utility that are shared amongst hybrid classes with no pure equivalent, and sharing them with a pure does make it easier to drop hybrids from a raid.

Edit: I don't think this really matters much in a 25-man raid, but it does in a 10-man raid.

[ Post edited by Lilspark ]

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

73. Re: Excessive Design Overlap for Warlocks/Mag 04/10/2009 01:37:12 PM PDT

I think the OPs original point about how close the mage and warlock are in the design space (down to using similar gear) was the most interesting. After that the discussion kind of wandered into the same kinds of threads we have seen a lot of lately.

We don't think mages are in any realistic danger of losing spots to warlocks. If we're really down in the realm of "They'll bring the other guy because his debuff is easier to apply" then I think there are probably other things you can do to make yourself a valuable member of your group.

We don't think mages and warlocks are in any danger of losing their spots to evil hybrids. Groups that run with all hybrids are most likely going to have lower dps (though not as low as if they had brought all hybrids during BC).

We think mage and warlock dps are pretty comparable. Again, close enough that things like boss, gear, skill, luck and even lag are probably going to have more of an impact on the numbers you come up with than the base numbers in the spells and talents alone.

Things may work out different in Ulduar for one reason or another. Maybe players develop a new rotation that bumps their dps more than the ones currently being used. Maybe someone comes up with a glyph - trinket combo that does amazing things. Maybe the specific items that drop in Ulduar do more than the test shirts players had on the PTR. If any of that leads to what we think are bad outcomes, then we will adjust accordingly.

Pakars

< Neutralized >

Skywall

74. Re: Excessive Design Overlap for Warlocks/Mag 04/10/2009 01:39:26 PM PDT

First

Q u o t e:
I think the OPs original point about how close the mage and warlock are in the design space (down to using similar gear) was the most interesting. After that the discussion kind of wandered into the same kinds of threads we have seen a lot of lately.

We don't think mages are in any realistic danger of losing spots to warlocks. If we're really down in the realm of "They'll bring the other guy because his debuff is easier to apply" then I think there are probably other things you can do to make yourself a valuable member of your group.

We don't think mages and warlocks are in any danger of losing their spots to evil hybrids. Groups that run with all hybrids are most likely going to have lower dps (though not as low as if they had brought all hybrids during BC).

We think mage and warlock dps are pretty comparable. Again, close enough that things like boss, gear, skill, luck and even lag are probably going to have more of an impact on the numbers you come up with than the base numbers in the spells and talents alone.

Things may work out different in Ulduar for one reason or another. Maybe players develop a new rotation that bumps their dps more than the ones currently being used. Maybe someone comes up with a glyph - trinket combo that does amazing things. Maybe the specific items that drop in Ulduar do more than the test shirts players had on the PTR. If any of that leads to what we think are bad outcomes, then we will adjust accordingly.

Meh. I agree with the OP though. Warlocks and mages are getting to be too much like each other, in PvE and PvP. I'd personally like to see a difference between the buffs/etc warlocks and mages bring, because it's already at the point where playing a warlock in PvP feels like playing a gimped mage with no escapes and playing a mage in PvE feels like playing a gimped warlock with less DPS. It's perfectly fine to do so, but it just feels awkward.

Like Critcritded said lower, warlocks don't feel all that evil.

[ Post edited by Pakars ]

Q u o t e:
mmmmmmmmm there there my darlings, mmmmm MMMMMMMMM dont cry, you know whose got your back wink wink if you know what i mean....WE'LL NERF FEAR AGAIN mmmmmm MMMMMMMM MMMM!!!!! OH YES!!!

Ruzika

Anvilmar

75. Re: Excessive Design Overlap for Warlocks/Mag 04/10/2009 01:40:50 PM PDT

first

Damn you

[ Post edited by Ruzika ]

Burning Crusade and Brain Cancer start with the same letters.

Snacktray

< Monolith >

Llane

76. Re: Excessive Design Overlap for Warlocks/Mag 04/10/2009 01:42:33 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
I think the OPs original point about how close the mage and warlock are in the design space (down to using similar gear) was the most interesting. After that the discussion kind of wandered into the same kinds of threads we have seen a lot of lately.

We don't think mages are in any realistic danger of losing spots to warlocks. If we're really down in the realm of "They'll bring the other guy because his debuff is easier to apply" then I think there are probably other things you can do to make yourself a valuable member of your group.

We don't think mages and warlocks are in any danger of losing their spots to evil hybrids. Groups that run with all hybrids are most likely going to have lower dps (though not as low as if they had brought all hybrids during BC).

We think mage and warlock dps are pretty comparable. Again, close enough that things like boss, gear, skill, luck and even lag are probably going to have more of an impact on the numbers you come up with than the base numbers in the spells and talents alone.

Things may work out different in Ulduar for one reason or another. Maybe players develop a new rotation that bumps their dps more than the ones currently being used. Maybe someone comes up with a glyph - trinket combo that does amazing things. Maybe the specific items that drop in Ulduar do more than the test shirts players had on the PTR. If any of that leads to what we think are bad outcomes, then we will adjust accordingly.

The "raid buff" argument really doesn't apply to 25 mans but I do see how people that only raid 10 mans would worry about it.

I agree that as long as both specs are within a reasonable dps range that the unique features of each class will bring both to raid.

Some are scared that PTR theorycrafting looks to put more Warlock dps beyond the range of RNG and fight mechanics. I just hope that if there is a discrepancy that it will be examined quickly as opposed to the next content patch.

Critcritded

< K o n v i c T >

Stonemaul

77. Re: Excessive Design Overlap for Warlocks/Mag 04/10/2009 01:44:54 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
I think the OPs original point about how close the mage and warlock are in the design space (down to using similar gear) was the most interesting. After that the discussion kind of wandered into the same kinds of threads we have seen a lot of lately.

I agree G.C. but I think there's one more area to look at. Warlock and Mage PVP are notably dissimilar experiences (because it's not just all about dps in PvP), mainly because of the speed at which their damage is delivered and the CCs involved. Perhaps there are CC methods that can be devised separate from Mage ones that will make Warlock PVP different but equally as viable as Mage PVP.

My recommendations are to look at the spirit of the class. Mage is all about being the master of elements, harnessing the power of magic and being able to weave illusions (what with mirror, invis and sheeping). Warlocking is all about trading out your own life/soul for the dark powers you command. So perhaps our CCs can involve things like "sacrifice X of my HP to keep you CCd" or "debuff your melee damage for X, but in return my spells all start costing double mana?" or the like? Warlocks should feel scary and evil. Mages should feel slippery and evasive. The former doesn't seem to be the case, while the latter does. Perhaps these recommendations could help that?

Absinthemind

< Jukebox >

Azgalor

78. Re: Excessive Design Overlap for Warlocks/Mag 04/10/2009 01:54:13 PM PDT

Pretty sure the clothies are beginning to clamor over the same dresses no matter what.

Homogenization is boring.

There may be a grain of truth in a beach of lies, but that doesn't make it any less irritating.

If everyone thought alike, you wouldn't be reading this.

Lilspark

< Gladius Dei >

Kilrogg

79. Re: Excessive Design Overlap for Warlocks/Mag 04/10/2009 02:01:55 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
I think the OPs original point about how close the mage and warlock are in the design space (down to using similar gear) was the most interesting. After that the discussion kind of wandered into the same kinds of threads we have seen a lot of lately.

I think you've fallen a little bit into what a lot of people did in response to the OP. This conversation shouldn't be about the DPS differences, if any, between warlocks and mages. And it really isn't about ease of applying the same debuff that both classes can provide. It's about the fact that a warlock brings the same in-combat utility that a mage does.

Personally, in a 25-man raid, this really doesn't matter. All buffs and debuffs will be filled, that it will come down to skill (if potential DPS were close to equal) on who you bring for that last slot, whether it's a warlock, mage, or even a skilled hybrid. In a 10-man raid, depending on what other buffs and debuffs are available, the choice between warlock and mage skews towards the warlock based on the potential utility both classes provide. Add hard mode 10-man to the mix, and it would make it obvious which class would be preferred if you are trying to fill more than one buff/debuff.

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