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  • Whisperwind
  • 0. weapon skill in raid tanking   09/13/2007 10:40:12 AM PDT
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an alternative title would be: "human=8.5% more aggro in tanking" or,"why you are screwed if you are non-human"

I have been long puzzled by the huge miss when tanking raid bosses, my typical combat log parsing would show 9% miss, 15% parry and 6% dodge against boss, which makes up a whopping 30% total miss against boss.

A recent study on elitistjerks has shed some light on this: http://elitistjerks.com/472075-post527.html
before I get to the results, let us go over what weapon skill usually do when you fight mobs below your level. attacker's weapon skill works against defender's defensive skill, you take the difference between them, and every 1 point of difference will give you 0.04% less miss, 0.04% less dodge, parry, crit, etc. so when you fight mob 1 level below you, you will have 0.04%*5=0.2% less miss,dodge,parry, 0.2% more crit. etc.

However, blizzard introduced a much bigger penalty when you fight raid bosses. Raid boss is consider level 73, and the normal difference between boss defense and your weapon skill is 15. The following table shows the penalty for every point of difference.

Stat Base >10 <=10 +10
Miss 5(24) 0.4 0.1 1
Dodge 5 0.1 ? ?
Parry 5 0.6 ? ?
CritPen 0 0.2 ? ?


1) the penalty is big, it is roughly 10 times higher than then bonus when you fight lower level mobs. the penaly is nonlinear, it is much severe for the first 5 points than later ones, first 4 point of weapon skill equal .4% hit, the 5th weapon skill point equal 1.4% hit. later weapon skill point equal .1%hit.
another way of look at this is following table

Target 3 levels higher, one-hand or two handed weapon or ranged, no +Hit through talents

Skill Hit Miss Total Decrease
+ 0 141.92 9.0% + 4.0% 0.0%
+ 1 135.62 8.6% + 3.6% 0.4%
+ 2 129.31 8.2% + 3.2% 0.4%
+ 3 123 7.8% + 2.8% 0.4%
+ 4 116.69 7.4% + 2.4% 0.4%
+ 5 94.62 6.0% + 1.0% 1.4% --> 1% jump
+ 6 93.04 5.9% + 0.9% 0.1%
+ 7 91.46 5.8% + 0.8% 0.1%
+ 8 89.89 5.7% + 0.7% 0.1%
+ 9 88.31 5.6% + 0.6% 0.1%
+10 86.73 5.5% + 0.5% 0.1%
+11 85.15 5.4% + 0.4% 0.1%
+12 83.58 5.3% + 0.3% 0.1%
+13 82 5.2% + 0.2% 0.1%
+14 80.42 5.1% + 0.1% 0.1%
+15 73.85 5.0% + 0.0% 0.1%

2) The penalty applys to both dpsing and tanking, but for tanking it is more severe cause the parry penalty is huge. and for parry, some part of the table is not figured out, it is not clear if it has the 1% jump at 5th skill point.

3) First 5 point of weapons skill is important, It will give you 3% less miss, 4% less parry ( if there is a 1%jump), 0.5% less dodge, 1% more crit, a total of 8.5% more threat against raid boss. so human warrior will have 8.5% more threat than other warrior when using sword, mace.

4) A good racial should make roughly 1% difference, draenei have 1% hit, nightelf 1% dodge, human 5weapon skill is roughly .8% when fighting lower level mobs. However 5 weapon skill=8.5% fighting raid boss is just too strong racial.

5) It is not the first time blizzard make this kind of mistake, in Wow classic, melee auto attack have 40% chance of glancing blow against boss, but for human it is like 10% because of the weapon skill and boss is considered as level 72 boss for human because of the racial.

6) What blizzard should do: i am perfect ok with blizzard introducing the raid boss hit penalty, but the penalty should depend on level difference not on weapon skill difference, so boss will be considered as level 73 for all of us, not level 72 to human, level 73 for rest of us.

7) What you should do if you are non-human:
There is very little itemization on weapon skill, for the advanced guild, there is glove of enforcement gives +5 weapon skill, mallet of the tides gives +4 weapon skill, not good enough to break the 5th weapon skill magic points. for the rest poor guys, you can get the lower city exalted ring which give 5 dagger skill and use a dagger.

In summary, human 8.5% more aggro ftw! rest of us, not so lucky, thanks to stupid blizzard design.

Edit: A few people kindly pointed to me that it is not clear yet whether weapon skill has impact on parry rate, it is still to be tested. If not, then human would have 4% more aggro not 8%.

[ Post edited by Ricci ]

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  • 1. Re: weapon skill in raid tanking   09/13/2007 11:14:48 AM PDT
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I used to use a fast sword from I thin Mech? It had sword skill on it. But after upgrading to the exalted HH sword, yeah I am missing that weapon skill. I really wish there was an easy way to get a small amount, even a gem or something.
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  • Stormrage
  • 2. Re: weapon skill in raid tanking   09/13/2007 12:10:25 PM PDT
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Even if your numbers are correct, you will not get as much threat from them as you think you will. The fact that most of your rage comes from getting hit, and that missing on a special costs you less rage causes it not to be as effective as you might think. Where it gains some effect is in a situation where you cannot burn your rage or a situation on the other end of the spectrum, where you are missing on your white hits and need more rage.

I would much rather have the tauren racial.

THE SPICE MUST FLOW
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  • 3. Re: weapon skill in raid tanking   09/13/2007 12:17:14 PM PDT
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Misses on raid bosses can be partially countered by hit rating.

Get some hit rating gear or gems, and get friendly with (or be) a draenei hunter, paladin or warrior for a free +1% to hit. Shaman, Mage and Priest Draenei give +1% to hit with spells.

For Dodges and Parries, well there is an Arms talent that increases your skill with all weapons, and beyond that, there's only a bit of gear that gives +weapon skill.
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  • Blade's Edge
  • 4. Re: weapon skill in raid tanking   09/13/2007 12:20:17 PM PDT
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My human has to have something. Anyways, weapon skill was good before, then it appeared to have been nerfed into the ground, and now it's found to be good again. If you rolled that NE back in the day, it's your own fault for not having gone human.

Anyways, you get free dodge and shadowmeld, both solid racials.

Edit: reread your post, thought nelfs got 2 percent bonus on dodge. fixed

[ Post edited by Baconz ]

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  • Blade's Edge
  • 5. Re: weapon skill in raid tanking   09/13/2007 12:24:29 PM PDT
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Q u o t e:
Even if your numbers are correct, you will not get as much threat from them as you think you will. The fact that most of your rage comes from getting hit, and that missing on a special costs you less rage causes it not to be as effective as you might think. Where it gains some effect is in a situation where you cannot burn your rage or a situation on the other end of the spectrum, where you are missing on your white hits and need more rage.

I would much rather have the tauren racial.


It's pretty nice for a tank. Rage is generally a non-issue, but if I'm having shield slams and revenges not connect - well, then life sucks. Also giving the boss less parries so he's hitting me less often over time. Weapon skill +5 is better than stacking hit for threat.
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  • 6. Re: weapon skill in raid tanking   09/13/2007 03:20:30 PM PDT
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Data I've seen suggests no change in parries, due to weapon skill.
Therefore its more like a 4% gain, not 8%.

The evidence for it reducing parries is one random blue post.

The evidence for it not reducing parries is a ton of testing.
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  • Whisperwind
  • 7. Re: weapon skill in raid tanking   09/13/2007 04:20:15 PM PDT
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yes parry is harder to test. However a lot of tanks are seeing double digits parries versus boss, .6% per skill point parry penalty will help to explain that.
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