World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> PvP is DEAD and there's no way to fix it.

Iapetes

< PALS FOR LIFE >

Laughing Skull

240. Re: PvP is DEAD and there's no way to fix it. 03/23/2009 07:03:01 PM PDT

I didnt think you could still do that with shadowmeld.

Horrorfist

< Insurrection >

Dath'Remar

241. Re: PvP is DEAD and there's no way to fix it. 03/23/2009 07:03:06 PM PDT

I BG as prot.

I can't Arena as prot.

Huge difference. If you want to "test" me in prot. Make it viable...
I will go on thursday if you do one change for me.

Vigilance transfers rage/threat.
Kthanks :P
Horror

http://www.insurrectiontbc.com
Oceanic Raiding Guild
Pickles!

Sienna

< Nøvus Ørsa >

Windrunner

242. Re: PvP is DEAD and there's no way to fix it. 03/23/2009 07:03:37 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q u o t e:
The design decision to implement the arena and make it the absolute focus of PvP to the exclusion of all else is what "killed" pvp. Miniaturizing pvp in an mmo, particularly one of this size, was an extremely cynical move on the part of the developers.

Most of the talk I hear and read about "fixing" pvp involves the arena, such as toning down damage, scaling back or eliminating talents, more resilience, less resilience, special armor, no armor, and on and on ad naseaum. All of these bizarre ideas in a vain effort to fix what is at the heart of the problem, which is the arena itself. Trying to fix it with this ludicrous and mythical notion of "class balance" is similar to watching your only car explode and worrying about the paint job. Meanwhile, the real MMO pvp (you know: Massive, Multiplayer) withers away after years of malnutrition and neglect.

PvP will never be "fixed" as long as arenas remain the focal point. It has diminished the spirit and scope of the game, and trivializes the fundamental idea that an MMO should be epic in scale and scope, both in PvP and PvE.
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Q u o t e:
Many balancing adjustments have been made and can be tested on the public test realms. We're calling for all PvPers who are interested in doing some focus testing to log into the test realms this Thursday and queue up for any rated arena bracket: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864449012&sid=1
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This is irony in its purest form.

Blue, you got owned.

[ Post edited by Sienna ]

A person's IQ, yearly income, sexual prowess, ingenuity, physical appearance and generally every other aspect of their character can be condensed down to four digits: their 'Arena rating'.

Kryps

< Pure >

Kel'Thuzad

243. Re: PvP is DEAD and there's no way to fix it. 03/23/2009 07:05:56 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
and that we'd like to develop a system to more accurately measure skill in battlegrounds to provide better PvP rewards for those who don't want to do arenas.

What does that have to do with fixing the gameplay of the battlegrounds? To this day, people still do not have a clue what they're doing in AV -- they all just follow the guy in front, and if that guy goes into Galv, then now we have 40 people wasting time on Galv when we could've only sent 5 people to Galv and the rest could've continued onto the the objectives, like destroying Towers. To this day, players do not know about the towers, and if they did, they do not know how to destroy them either (by defending it for 4 minutes).

You present none of these instructions in the game, or on a background loading screen tip. No one is going to close their game, or tab out, to then search your site for such instructions(which probably aren't on your site)

Q u o t e:
Such an overhaul takes time though,

There have been numerous suggestions provided, with the most basic being "at the least, provide some background loading screen tips", like "Press the M key to find the towers to assault"

Background Screen Loading Tips: What's the huge overhaul on that one?

Glide

< I OD on HKs >

Shattered Hand

244. Re: PvP is DEAD and there's no way to fix it. 03/23/2009 07:06:18 PM PDT

I love BG's. But I in no way shape or form feel that running a flag from one end of a field to another is PvP, when put along side direct combat with another player.

PvP combat needs to be addressed, and this is what the testing on Thursday is supposed to do. When PvP is dead, it is because there are balance issues from one class to another when they are engaged in PvP combat with each other. Not because capping a base isn't worth enough points towards your next PvP related epic.

Capturing a flag is not PvP. Fighting 10 players while walking across the field is. PvP class balance defines whether PvP is broken or not.

Kryps

< Pure >

Kel'Thuzad

245. Re: PvP is DEAD and there's no way to fix it. 03/23/2009 07:07:32 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
it's baffling to me honestly.

No one asked if it was or not, brown-noser.

Zarhym

Blizzard Poster

246. Re: PvP is DEAD and there's no way to fix it. 03/23/2009 07:08:17 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
I remember Tigole's statement you refer to. I must have passed over the BG reference since I usually tuned Tigole out when Arenas were mentioned because I don't play them. I gave them a fair chance. Just didn't care for them.

If other employees have made mention of BG changes in the past, I must not have read them. I miss a lot of blue posts as I am only here for a few hours a night. But since you mentioned BGs are getting looked at, I'm perfectly OK with waiting.

Just to sum it up...

Arenas became the focal point of PvP because there exists in the rating system an easier way to measure skill. On the contrary, battlegrounds shifted from the focus and the means by which the most competitive PvP rewards could be obtained because there's almost no measurement of skill. Someone could AFK their way to great gear just as easily as someone legitimately playing to win every match.

We don't like this though, as arenas really are meant to be an E-sport side game, not the end all, be all of World of Warcraft PvP. We understand it's a niche game that's not for everyone. What we want to do is revamp the battleground system and create some better functionality to measure skill so that players have access to more comparable rewards to those issued via the arenas. We'd also like to provide the means for player to level up via PvP should that be their preference.

We have a new battleground on the way for Wrath of the Lich King as well. It's looking pretty cool so far. :)

Q u o t e:
Background Screen Loading Tips: What's the huge overhaul on that one?

That has little to do with changing the functionality of the way honor is obtained, and the way skill of the individual is measured in a battleground. I've not personally read your suggestions, but I agree it'd be a good idea to get some guides or tips out about the objectives in each battleground.

[ Post edited by Zarhym ]

Welcome to the forums. I love you.

Mumbler

< Insane Asylum >

Hyjal

247. Re: PvP is DEAD and there's no way to fix it. 03/23/2009 07:08:36 PM PDT

Dks and Pallies are both so over powered, in all aspects of PvPing (BGs, Arenas, etc.), that it's borderline pathetic.

Ridiculous really.

Kryps

< Pure >

Kel'Thuzad

248. Re: PvP is DEAD and there's no way to fix it. 03/23/2009 07:09:05 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
When PvP is dead, it is because there are balance issues from one class to another when they are engaged in PvP

WRONG

That is not the sole reason for why PvP would be dead. Class balance could be perfect, and PvP could still die because of other issues. Get it?

Sonaris

< Intolerance >

Dragonmaw

249. Re: PvP is DEAD and there's no way to fix it. 03/23/2009 07:09:15 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

I don't really know what you mean. Regardless of how you feel about arenas though, it's still PvP.

It could be exactly the type of player vs. player combat you hoped to never see in a MMO. It's still PvP.

Thanks Auction. I just want you to know that I can't wait to provide some of this information. I personally do not enjoy playing arenas, though I see the niche they fill.

I'll be pushing to get some peaks of our plans for battlegrounds out as soon as we can. :)

Arena matches are, for the most parts, constant. In certain brackets and ratings, you will see certain gear setup / group setup / skill level.
BGs are more dynamic, it (did at one time) contains wider variety of class / skill / gears. Observing PVP through arena is the like having tunnel visions. And trying to balance classes while assuming everyone has such and such gear/talent/setup will just create more unbalance unless everyone play as you assume.

Iapetes

< PALS FOR LIFE >

Laughing Skull

251. Re: PvP is DEAD and there's no way to fix it. 03/23/2009 07:09:51 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

We have a new battleground on the way for Wrath of the Lich King as well. It's looking pretty cool so far. :)

WHOA WHAT? THIS HAS NOT BEEN MENTIONED BEFORE ZARHYM.

Darqueling

< The Rogue Clan >

Silvermoon

252. Re: PvP is DEAD and there's no way to fix it. 03/23/2009 07:10:16 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
I don't really know what you mean. Regardless of how you feel about arenas though, it's still PvP.

It could be exactly the type of player vs. player combat you hoped to never see in a MMO. It's still PvP.

My point is in getting fast, focused and streamlined data you are getting data of very limited use. I know full well Blizzard will never cater to me (I don't really want them/you to do so), but what I value in data is thoroughness and accuracy. One day of testing Arenas is not going to give you thorough or accurate data on PvP as a whole.

Think of it as using any 5 man to balance Ulduar, or group PvE in general. All the data gathering possible in the first is going to be of very little use in balancing the other two.

Schyla

< Mythos >

Stormscale

253. Re: PvP is DEAD and there's no way to fix it. 03/23/2009 07:10:31 PM PDT

Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game

3v3 Arena.

Schyla - 70 Mage
Fizzlepuff - 70 Warlock

FizzleUI http://img100.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fizzlepuffuiez3.jpg

Glide

< I OD on HKs >

Shattered Hand

254. Re: PvP is DEAD and there's no way to fix it. 03/23/2009 07:10:45 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
There have been numerous suggestions provided, with the most basic being "at the least, provide some background loading screen tips", like "Press the M key to find the towers to assault"

Background Screen Loading Tips: What's the huge overhaul on that one?

I dunno what you play on, but my BG's are leaded before I really have time to look at those loading screen tips.

Let's be honest. Things like that are not going to fix PvP. Seems to me what you're complaining about, are bad players queueing up for your BG's. Here's a tip. Bad players are bad. They will continue to be bad. If they cared to be good, they'd take two seconds to understand the BG they're in. It only took me one or two games to fully understand SotA's mechanics.

Stupid people are something that we really can't blame Blizzard for.

Pownmeister

< Avant Garde >

Kil'jaeden

255. Re: PvP is DEAD and there's no way to fix it. 03/23/2009 07:12:22 PM PDT

Hey Zarhym, I'm not sure if its policy to not be able to link to other posts from the WoW forums, but I made a pretty detailed post about some ideas that could help improve arcane survivability in PvP, and some other ideas that hyped of exodus mentioned.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15443290313&sid=1&pageNo=1

It would be really nice if you could check it out, I put a lot of thought into writing it, and I think some of the changes I'm asking for aren't unreasonable(they do not in any way shape or form increase dmg output, merely control/mobility/survivability).

As for another thing, I think it would be a really great idea to add Mirror Image to arcane flows, its sort of weird how all the other CDs of arcane are reduced, except for Mirror Image. The dmg output is negligible since it is a GCD that isn't spent on DPSing.

A side-note for fire-PvP, it would be nice if scorch could be added to the list of spells that torment the weak affect. It would give it enough umph in PvP to be a good spell to cast, and for PvE, it might add a very small amount of dps, possibily under 50.

[ Post edited by Pownmeister ]

LoL PvE Gear

Bamff

< Piratzz >

Cho'gall

256. Re: PvP is DEAD and there's no way to fix it. 03/23/2009 07:12:36 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Many balancing adjustments have been made and can be tested on the public test realms. We're calling for all PvPers who are interested in doing some focus testing to log into the test realms this Thursday and queue up for any rated arena bracket: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864449012&sid=1

Why on earth would you guys create an entire world.
Call it world of WARcraft.
Put 2 opposing factions in this world.
Give us the ability to fight, and focus the entire game on fighting.

Then turn your back on world combat and faction vs faction combat?

Why dont you just erase the world, give us a giant hallway with doors and allow us to run up and down in the hallway picking between doors that lead us to instances, raids and arenas.

Ganking is without a doubt the most fun thing to do in WOW

Dear Blizzard-Nerf Rock, Paper is fine. Sincerely yours, Scissors.
DK- Hey guys, I'm Dynamite, I'm going to be playing from now on.

Glide

< I OD on HKs >

Shattered Hand

258. Re: PvP is DEAD and there's no way to fix it. 03/23/2009 07:12:44 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

WRONG

That is not the sole reason for why PvP would be dead. Class balance could be perfect, and PvP could still die because of other issues. Get it?

Unfortuantely, considering PvP is, you know, combat against another player... No, that's entirely right. At least that is as much as we can ask Blizzard for.

Madia

< The Seldarine >

Maelstrom

259. Re: PvP is DEAD and there's no way to fix it. 03/23/2009 07:13:18 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Just to sum it up...

Arenas became the focal point of PvP because there exists in the rating system an easier way to measure skill. On the contrary, battlegrounds shifted from the focus and the means by which the most competitive PvP rewards could be obtained because there's almost no measurement of skill. Someone could AFK their way to great gear just as easily as someone legitimately playing to win every match.

We don't like this though, as arenas really are meant to be an E-sport side game, not the end all, be all of World of Warcraft PvP. We understand it's a niche game that's not for everyone. What we want to do is revamp the battleground system and create some better functionality to measure skill so that players have access to more comparable rewards to those issued via the arenas. We'd also like to provide the means for player to level up via PvP should that be their preference.

We have a new battleground on the way for Wrath of the Lich King as well. It's looking pretty cool so far. :)

Ah, thanks for the summary.

As for a new Battleground, is this something seperate from the upcoming Argent Tournament?

I'll sit back and see what you have in store for BGs.

"You're all clear kid! Now let's blow this thing and go home!"

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