World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Hybrids and thier dps 'tax'

Sylari

Arena Tournament 2

180. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 09:08:55 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Okay so I can potentially tank or DPS. Problem is tanks tend to be worth four of the 25 player slots, healers are in about the same boat.

That leaves 17/25 slots for DPS, and in the event I can't get in one of the four tanking slots (if I even WANTED to) I wouldn't be in the other 17 DPS slots because other classes are simply BETTER.

Nice policy.

Better by such a small margin that if you have one gear upgrade over them, you're better. If they have slightly more latency than you do, you're better, if they're slightly less optimized than you are, you're better.

SO yes, you have a very minor advantage, and so do they. Seems balanced.

I think you deserve a little credit, No one's ever dodged that shot of mine...But nobody gets lucky twice either!

Jpark

< deviant >

Caelestrasz

181. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 09:09:27 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

And with duel specs he will be even more useful. if he can do all of that do you really think it is fair for the rogue to do the same or less damage and not be able to fill another role. if that happened there is absolutely no reason to have a rogue except for sap and tricks of the trade and i doubt anyone will role a class for those abilities.

Following your logic with duel specs, you will fill your raid with druids only?

Duel specs is gonna benefit the pures more as locks/mages can spec into trees that'll maximise their dps depending on the boss mechanics.

"If an average tank has 15k Max hp while fighting Patchwerk, would Patchwerk hit for 20k? Really?"

Ralgarog

< Winter Wolves >

Argent Dawn

182. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 09:10:25 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Must... not... reply... to... thread....

Argh.

Then again maybe we need a "pure vs. hybrid debate" forum. :)

Our logic is actually pretty simple. If hybrid classes can do the same dps as pure classes, then why have pure classes in the game? So we design the pure classes to do slightly higher dps.

I am not a developer and i don't have a degree or anything. I am not that good at designing, i don't think but i do like programming in c++, teaching myself and stuff. I'm sure that i am not as qualified as you guys, especially because it's not me with the multi billion dollar game under my belt.

However, i seriously disagree with that logic.

In diablo 2, and almost every other adventure game, nobody ever says, "Why be a mage when warriors tend to do more dps?" or "Why be a Warrior when i can be a paladin and be able to heal myself too?"

I did not choose a enhancement shaman because shaman have a heal button. I chose it because i enjoy being able to melee dps and mix up my physical attacks along with using spells. I absolutely hate playing rogues, i don't like playing warriors, i don't like playing as a mage, but death knights and Shaman are up my alley.

If you were to choose a random class, and give them 20% more dps and every other class, you'll never see people that prefer play style 'A' moving to that class. You'll see people who prefer play Style 'A' asking to have their dps reach up to par.

I know this is falling onto deaf ears, but as a shaman, i enjoy playing a shaman. Enhancement shaman. I don't heal in raids unless i absolutely have to, and surprise, since shaman tend to be crapped on the most because of their lower health and what not, i'm more of less forced to throw in a self heal every now and then if absolutely needed.

Again, "Why should x play x class if y class does more damage" arguments and statements makes no sense to me at all.

With that said i agree with your other statements though XD.

Q u o t e:
This one time, I was in a group with a shaman. He had pretty good gear and he was happy with his class. I was like LOL LET'S CHANGE THAT.

-Tseric

Hnh

< The Darkside >

Altar of Storms

183. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 09:11:54 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Okay so I can potentially tank or DPS. Problem is tanks tend to be worth four of the 25 player slots, healers are in about the same boat.

That leaves 17/25 slots for DPS, and in the event I can't get in one of the four tanking slots (if I even WANTED to) I wouldn't be in the other 17 DPS slots because other classes are simply BETTER.

Nice policy.

there not superior enough at your role to justify not bringing you just because you'll do a tiny bit less damage. (again assuming blizzard balances your dps trees right)

Ralgarog

< Winter Wolves >

Argent Dawn

184. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 09:13:36 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Following your logic with duel specs, you will fill your raid with druids only?

Duel specs is gonna benefit the pures more as locks/mages can spec into trees that'll maximise their dps depending on the boss mechanics.

Ontop of what you said, for some odd reason, people believe because a shaman that has dpsed all of his WoW life will some how instantly get the best healing gear in the game and be able to have the skill and patience to heal just because they have a heal spec.

Q u o t e:
This one time, I was in a group with a shaman. He had pretty good gear and he was happy with his class. I was like LOL LET'S CHANGE THAT.

-Tseric

Shanic

< Forged >

Shattered Hand

186. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 09:15:11 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

And with duel specs he will be even more useful. if he can do all of that do you really think it is fair for the rogue to do the same or less damage and not be able to fill another role. if that happened there is absolutely no reason to have a rogue except for sap and tricks of the trade and i doubt anyone will role a class for those abilities.

The problem, again, here is that you are arguing just for the rogue. I included myself in that discussion - I'm a hybrid just like he is, but I -REFUSE- to tank or heal. It is not going to hurt my spot to do so, and shouldn't as a hybrid...or a pure, who essentially did that by rolling their class. If you wish to tank/heal, it should help your slot without penalizing others - since while your tanking or healing you are not doing DPS (equal to DPS classes).

No bad hybrid DPS is going to get a spot purely because they can tank like a dream - they will be considered a tank, likely a back-up tank.

Oh and for the record, from a class-balance and design stand-point, the devs have said dual spec doesn't exist - so it has no factor in this.

Sylari

Arena Tournament 2

187. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 09:16:07 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
This is another pop enrage moment for Mr GC. This post will be pointed too to explain away 20% dps differences between classes and massive inequality in other aspects of the game. Thanks for arming people for the coming nuclear meltdown that will be 3.1, At least now they have a blue response that explains why certain hybrids will no longer even remotely be viable dps.

3.1, heal, tank or dont raid.

troll harder?

I think you deserve a little credit, No one's ever dodged that shot of mine...But nobody gets lucky twice either!

Jpark

< deviant >

Caelestrasz

188. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 09:16:31 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Ontop of what you said, for some odd reason, people believe because a shaman that has dpsed all of his WoW life will some how instantly get the best healing gear in the game and be able to have the skill and patience to heal just because they have a heal spec.

Welcome to the wow forums where everyone is expected to heal 24 people solo with greens and one shot world bosses. :D

[ Post edited by Jpark ]

"If an average tank has 15k Max hp while fighting Patchwerk, would Patchwerk hit for 20k? Really?"

Hnh

< The Darkside >

Altar of Storms

189. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 09:16:32 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Following your logic with duel specs, you will fill your raid with druids only?

Duel specs is gonna benefit the pures more as locks/mages can spec into trees that'll maximise their dps depending on the boss mechanics.

That is no where near as useful as getting a tank or healer that you need for a fight or if you have to many tanks and healers you can get another dps.
also most pures wont be respecing, for example my warlocks 40/31 build in ulduar is the highest damage spec no ifs and or buts about it, no encounter will another of my specs be more useful or damaging than it and i would lower my dps if i chose another build

Shanic

< Forged >

Shattered Hand

190. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 09:19:58 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

That is no where near as useful as getting a tank or healer that you need for a fight or if you have to many tanks and healers you can get another dps.
also most pures wont be respecing, for example my warlocks 40/31 build in ulduar is the highest damage spec no ifs and or buts about it, no encounter will another of my specs be more useful or damaging than it and i would lower my dps if i chose another build

Just to reinforce my last point, I'll repeat it:

For the record, from a class-balance and design stand-point, the devs have said dual spec doesn't exist - so it has no factor in this.

Think of dual spec as fun or utility, not something that will ever impact class balance.

Shiyo

< Marginal Utility >

Gurubashi

191. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 09:21:40 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Your not useless though you can still pull more than enough dps to be useful. If your guild was going to do ulduar and they had 25 people online but one of the dps is a shaman there not going to cancel the raid or try and find a random mage in dalaran to fill the spot there gouing to bring the shaman and i doubt they will even notice or care that they have hybrids dpsing. (assuming blizzard balances it right and buffs elemental and enhancements dps to be competitive)

In the same boat, nobody is going to deny a mage/warlock an application because they have boomkins and elemental shamans that do the same amount of dps. The only required classes to get all the only dps utility is a mage and a boomkin.

Jpark

< deviant >

Caelestrasz

192. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 09:22:29 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

That is no where near as useful as getting a tank or healer that you need for a fight or if you have to many tanks and healers you can get another dps.
also most pures wont be respecing, for example my warlocks 40/31 build in ulduar is the highest damage spec no ifs and or buts about it, no encounter will another of my specs be more useful or damaging than it and i would lower my dps if i chose another build

And what is stopping your guild on getting a tank/healer class to respec dps right now?
Nothing!
or is hearth -> Summon an issue?

If you are in a min/max guild you are doing this already so it doesn't effect you.
If you are not in a min/max guild you won't do it anyway.

"If an average tank has 15k Max hp while fighting Patchwerk, would Patchwerk hit for 20k? Really?"

Hnh

< The Darkside >

Altar of Storms

193. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 09:25:19 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

The problem, again, here is that you are arguing just for the rogue. I included myself in that discussion - I'm a hybrid just like he is, but I -REFUSE- to tank or heal. It is not going to hurt my spot to do so, and shouldn't as a hybrid...or a pure, who essentially did that by rolling their class. If you wish to tank/heal, it should help your slot without penalizing others - since while your tanking or healing you are not doing DPS (equal to DPS classes).

No bad hybrid DPS is going to get a spot purely because they can tank like a dream - they will be considered a tank, likely a back-up tank.

Oh and for the record, from a class-balance and design stand-point, the devs have said dual spec doesn't exist - so it has no factor in this.

but there is stil no point in rolling a dps class over a hybrid, pures would have no advantage in the game at all except for a few buffs that is 4 classes that are could have rolled a hybrid and done equal dps and have other options available to them.

however i can see what you mean when you say that there is no reason for a hybrid to dps except for the buffs they bring but i think it is a lesser of two evils decision. can you honestly say that anyone would roll a pure over a hybrid and that your classes wouldn't be Superior to ours.

[ Post edited by Hnh ]

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

194. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 09:26:41 PM PDT

"Why am I a hybrid if I am only there to do dps?"

Here are two situations:

1) Your guild is forming the raid. The raid leader has all the dps slots full. The mage isn't going to come. The shaman can say "Hey, if I respec to heal, can I come?"

2) Imagine a rogue and warrior compete for dps slots. Imagine the rogue beats the warrior and for purposes of this argument assume the warrior cannot possibly improve his skill or gear. If the player is really frustrated, he does have another option. He can give up his dps career and be a tank. Yeah he'll lose some good gear, but it won't take that long to get another set. He may already have some pieces.

Now flip that situation around. The warrior does better dps and nothing the rogue can do will top that. The rogue's option: reroll.

Because of situations like these, we don't think there would be many pure dps players unless they knew that it was theoretically possible for them to "win the meters." The risk of being useless would be too great.

If you are a warrior who promises never to tank, or a shaman who swears you will never ever heal, then I am sympathetic. However, to flip things around still risks the above problems, which we think are the greater of the two evils.

Again, the difference is so small that realistically, very few of your guilds will even notice it. If you have bad rogues and good warriors, the warriors will be on top of the meters. For nearly all of the people reading this thread, you have many things you can do that will improve your dps by 5% or more, such as get good gear, experiment with a better spec, or just learn to play better. If you are in the top one or two guilds on your server, then you probably will notice dps differences among the classes. However, you are probably not the ones at all worried about losing your raid spot.

Hnh

< The Darkside >

Altar of Storms

195. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 09:28:31 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
In the same boat, nobody is going to deny a mage/warlock an application because they have boomkins and elemental shamans that do the same amount of dps. The only required classes to get all the only dps utility is a mage and a boomkin.

But that is the only advantage we have plz let us keep it :(
no one would deny a hybrid to a raid spot to dps why not let the class that can only dps be a little bit better at it so we can justify playing it.

EDIT first and hi gc :)

[ Post edited by Hnh ]

Phizz

< Shockwave >

Ner'zhul

196. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 09:29:41 PM PDT

I've been posting this in hybrid threads since beta.

~# waffle gnome

Some people say arena measures skill. Others say raiding measures skill.
I say achievement points measure how much more fun I can have in a game than you.

Pappas

< overDose >

Magtheridon

198. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 09:35:05 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
2) Imagine a rogue and warrior compete for dps slots. Imagine the rogue beats the warrior and for purposes of this argument assume the warrior cannot possibly improve his skill or gear. If the player is really frustrated, he does have another option. He can give up his dps career and be a tank. Yeah he'll lose some good gear, but it won't take that long to get another set. He may already have some pieces.

You can't honestly believe that.

What will actually happen is the Warrior (insert any hybrid) will reroll and come back as DPS *if* push comes to shove and the situation comes to a head. If not in that guild, somewhere else.

What actually happens in guilds is people vie for roles that they want to do. The vast majority of time, they are not so desperate to join a raid that they'll give up what they enjoy doing more; that defeats the purpose of the game. That aside, it is not likely the people who enjoy and prefer tanking will slide over for the person who does so begrudgingly so that he can be along for the ride.

The fact is this: it's a matter of flavor. If a person enjoys a certain flavor of DPS over another, he'll gravitate towards that class. But I can tell you that he won't gravitate towards a different role.

[ Post edited by Pappas ]

Sylari

Arena Tournament 2

199. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 09:37:18 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

You can't honestly believe that.

What will actually happen is the Warrior (insert any hybrid) will reroll and come back as DPS *if* push comes to shove and the situation comes to a head. If not in that guild, somewhere else.

What actually happens in guilds is people vie for roles that they want to do. The vast majority of time, they are not so desperate to join a raid that they'll give up what they enjoy doing more; that defeats the purpose of the game. That aside, it is not likely the people who enjoy and prefer tanking will slide over for the person who does so begrudgingly so that he can be along for the ride.

The fact is this: it's a matter of flavor. If a person enjoys a certain flavor of DPS over another, he'll gravitate towards that class. But I can tell you that he won't gravitate towards a different role.

You're making up an anecdote to try to prove your point. Yes, there are warriors who hate tanking, shamans who hate healing. But there's a difference between not doing something because you don't feel like it and not doing something because you can't

We have a DK in our raid, who just respecced from DPS to tanking? What exactly are they? since according to you they don't exist >.>

[ Post edited by Sylari ]

I think you deserve a little credit, No one's ever dodged that shot of mine...But nobody gets lucky twice either!

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