now...before i say anything...yes, i'm a warrior. yes, i'm saying these things from a warrior point of view. no...this is not a "dont nerf TG warriors belong at the top of the charts" thread nor is this meant to be any type of QQ at all.

now...my question is....why do hybrids have thier dps 'taxed' just for being hybrids?

according to what Blizz wants, the dps heirarchy should be...
pure dps classes
hybrids.

this seems to be the overall goal of dps balance in 3.1

but really....i think there should be much more than that factored into this. DPS is not the only thing that determines whether or not someone gets a spot in a raid. Raid utility is also a big factor.

so why is being a hybrid the only thing that warrants being 'taxed'? I'm gonna show how i think dps balance should be with a basic point system.

******PLEASE NOTE: would like to reiterate...this is not a QQ thread. so please keep any flaming remarks to yourself

imagine.....All classes and specs start completely balanced at 0, and we 'tax' their dps based on what they bring. now...i'm only going to go into general topics...these topics can be broken apart further.

hybrids: right now this seems to be the only tax, so it really doesnt need to be explained. But i will say one thing....maybe different hybrids should have a different level of tax. being ably to heal on the fly is much more useful than being about to tank on the fly. so maybe tank/dps hybrids should get -0.5 where heal/dps hybrids get -1. that being said is it reasonable that pallies and druids get a slightly bigger tax for being able to do all 3 roles?

CC abiltity: supposedly Ulduar trash will bring back strategy in trash so CC will be important(whether or not this was accomplished is yet to be seen). classes that can CC (mages, hunters, warlocks, rogues, paladins in some cases). Again...like hybrids, not all CC is equal. mages can spam sheep whereas rogues can sap once...then maybe blind, then they're done..so maybe this tax can be broken into seperate levels.

Buffs/debuffs: buffs are very important. a class with buffs will get a spot over a class without buffs no matter how hard you try to make these buffs less mandatory.

Raid Utility: Pretty similar to buffs. raid utility makes for more convenience to a raid...and something like a soulstone can bring a lot of convenience to a progression raid. (Things i would consider raid Utility..Brez, soulstone/healstones, mage tables, Hunter MD...etc.). now....this one i think should definately have a much lesser tax than some others because these are for convenience and will not necessarily make a difference in combat.

Range: Now i know i'll probably get some crap for this one, but as it is right now...many fights are just melee unfriendly and i cant think of a fight where ranged dps is at a disadvantage to melee. any fight can be done with all ranged dps...but i can think of a couple that would be much, much more difficult with all melee dps.

now lets do a couple comparisons with what blizz wants in 3.1. now...these will be done with a warrior compared to other classes because that is what i know best.

Warrior vs Mage: warriors are hybrids so they have the option to tank something in a pinch. Mages bring an Int buff (the only class that has this). Mages can CC. Mages are ranged dps. Mages bring food and water to the entire raid. do mages really deserve to have higher dps than warriors? lets say there's a 10-man raid with no mages, no warriors, and 1 spot open. if the mage is naturally one notch above the warrior in dps and he brings all that other stuff....who gets the spot? if mages were 2 or 3 notches below warriors in dps who gets the spot? now the warrior has a chance.

Warrior vs Paladin: both hybrids. both are dps and also have the ability to tank.....but pallies come with a blessing, an aura, and the ability to heal.... should fury warrior and Ret pally really be on the same level dps wise?

I think you make some valid points but when u stack up mage vs warrior at the bottom of the post it is clear that you left out one HUGE factor, which is survivability. Warriors wear plate armour and also because of stat budgets much more stamina naturally from gear. If you where to tax dps for survivability i think you could see why the mage with 16k HP, and 2000 armour needs to be able to put out dmg more quickly then you. that is not to say that overall mage and warrior dmg in a sustained 5-10 minute fight shouldn't converge to very similar numbers; they should assuming survivability is evened out by the healers in the group/raid.

In a pvp environment, i think this survivability issue is even more prevelent as u see class make up of 2's teams at 57% pally DK two of the most 'survivable' (not a word, lol) classes.

5% is just a myth. That pretty much covers:
- someone being lazy a little,
- RNG on crits/hits
- RNG in group mates and buffs that run
- RNG on encounter events
- gear differences in worth to different specs/classes

In short. Its not verifiable. My money is on everyone is being tuned to do same DPS. If your role is to do DPS, than you should be just as viable as the next person. They already learned that lesson. 5% with some RNG on crits, group mates and encounter events can quickly snowball into something large. 5% with any one of those can snowball quickly... Theyre not going to shoot you in foot. Not their intent.

Its not happening.

Just wanted to add. Folks mention being number one versus number ten alot.

But in a lot of raids ive done. Every single DPSer basically did like 7% of overall damage. The actuall difference in DPS and actual damage done over the entire encounter amounted to nothing. They all contrubeted 7%. Or maybe one did 8%, eight did 7% and three did 6% and one more did 2% ;).

That 5% is still gonna keep you in that 7% bracket. I say if youre in that bracket you did your fair share...

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Q u o t e:
I think you make some valid points but when u stack up mage vs warrior at the bottom of the post it is clear that you left out one HUGE factor, which is survivability. Warriors wear plate armour and also because of stat budgets much more stamina naturally from gear. If you where to tax dps for survivability i think you could see why the mage with 16k HP, and 2000 armour needs to be able to put out dmg more quickly then you. that is not to say that overall mage and warrior dmg in a sustained 5-10 minute fight shouldn't converge to very similar numbers; they should assuming survivability is evened out by the healers in the group/raid.

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^This.

Not to mention, a mage might bring tables, int buff etc to a raid group, but what about a hunter? A rogue? A warlock? What do they bring that's necessary, not a convenience? Damage, that's what. As a warrior, you bring that option to be a tank with a couple of buffs yourself... and you're in plate.

I'm irritated to this day that this toon out dps' my rogue. It should be vise versa, honestly, because I can go pay the fine, dual spec as a tank and switch with the click of a button if I need to.

DPS isn't about topping the charts or "being the best". DPS is about pulling enough damage and killing your target before it kills your tank because your healer went OOM. Classes like mages and locks that lack survivability (or even rogues since they have the lowest armor than any other class - the rest of them have buffs), thus pump out more damage. They don't have the option of going tank. They are dps/dps/dps... so I'd say it's pretty fair for an equally geared and skilled mage, warlock, hunter or rogue to out dps you.

No, pures shouldnt be doing more damage. That was the whole problem with hybrids before.

If your ROLE is DPS, than you should fullfill that role as well as any other player.

What should get tuned is to balance out any buffs and utility that make your class more favorable than others. So every Player filling that ROLE, (heals, tank, dps) has equal chance overall(ok to have some slight preferences, as long as they balance out, nothing major though)

AOE Paladin tanks being best for 5 mans was just not cool. Nor was it cool for a Paladin to have to heal because a Rogue beat them in the dust in DPS before.

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Q u o t e:
so maybe tank/dps hybrids should get -0.5 where heal/dps hybrids get -1. that being said is it reasonable that pallies and druids get a slightly bigger tax for being able to do all 3 roles?

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How convenient for you, Mr. warrior.

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Q u o t e:

That 5% is still gonna keep you in that 7% bracket. I say if youre in that bracket you did your fair share...

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okay, but if a mage is in the top end of that bracket and a warrior is on the bottom end of that bracket....who do you think is gonna get the raid spot?

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Q u o t e:
Warriors wear plate armour and also because of stat budgets much more stamina naturally from gear.

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plate dps itemization is something that pretty much everyone that wears plate dps gear wants changed. the fact that we have so much stam on our gear is already hindering our dps..


and about survivablity.....first of all, this was a purely PvE point of view....so PvP wasnt a factor in this. and in a raid setting i'm not convinced that a fury warrior has more survivability than a mage. if a warrior pulls aggro on something...that thing is gonna turn and smack the warrior in the face. if a mage pulls aggro on something...that thing has to walk over to the mage to hit him in which case the mage has abilities to protect him in that time.

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Q u o t e:
and about survivablity.....first of all, this was a purely PvE point of view....so PvP wasnt a factor in this. and in a raid setting i'm not convinced that a fury warrior has more survivability than a mage. if a warrior pulls aggro on something...that thing is gonna turn and smack the warrior in the face. if a mage pulls aggro on something...that thing has to walk over to the mage to hit him in which case the mage has abilities to protect him in that time.

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In the event a mob or boss uses whirlwind and my DK here doesn't move out of the way on time... I live. No IB, sometimes BS, sometimes no BS.

My rogue is one-shot by the same mob/boss if I fail to move.

Plate has more survivability.

lol@plate gives survivability...when was the last time you saw a warrior in dps gear tanking a boss?

hello welcome to wrath, where all raid wide damage is ARMOR IGNORING magic damage

in fact, warriors have a 10% damage penalty in the dps stance, AND have to be in melee range, AND have no aggro management abilities. In short, warriors are the biggest liability in raid, being the ones that take the most raid damage and also the most likely to pull aggro on anything and get one shot

you say plate is itemized better for stamina? guess what, every item stat has a cost, and wearing plates that are over budgeted in stamina cost us in dps stats

thats why you see most of us running around in half leather/mail

They hybrid "tax" is the fact that you can change your spec to keep a raid spot.

If a fight needs and extra tank a quick switch with Duel spec and there your ready to tank.

Also there are no longer and buff hat only one class can put up. Int yes the mage one is a better buff but Warlock can also put up a Int Spirit buff. Hell a scroll can even put up an int buff.

Also druids and shaman would be taxed so hard in you set up do to the fax that they can CC, switch specs,
buff, raid utility, and range that they wouldn't be any use for hitting an enrage timers.


Pally have a few changes coming that should lower their DPS. Right now Feral is OP but youll see that change before 3.1 goes live... Also when was the last time anyone saw a good Boomkin beating and one with equal gear and skill?

I noticed that you said this wasn't a QQ post at all. However, I'm having trouble seeing that. Why should pure DPS classes not be better at DPS over a class who can do different things? This post isn't constructive, enlightning, or interesting.

And just so you know: There are good DPS'ers and terribad DPS'ers. Both of hybrid and pure classes. If you excell at your role because you're good, this wouldn't even be an issue. Go run more tests. Figure out what you're doing wrong.

And just so you know, the part where you said ranged DPS'ers should have "taxed" DPS because they are ranged... I could hardly contain my laughter.

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Q u o t e:


In the event a mob or boss uses whirlwind and my DK here doesn't move out of the way on time... I live. No IB, sometimes BS, sometimes no BS.

My rogue is one-shot by the same mob/boss if I fail to move.

Plate has more survivability.

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ok, thats a good point. but i dont think its valid to say a plate wearer has more survivablity than a ranged dps.

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Q u o t e:
They hybrid "tax" is the fact that you can change your spec to keep a raid spot.

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changing my spec means i'm no longer dps. if i have to respec to keep my raid slot then why should my dps suffer when i am there to dps?

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Q u o t e:
Also druids and shaman would be taxed so hard in you set up do to the fax that they can CC, switch specs,
buff, raid utility, and range that they wouldn't be any use for hitting an enrage timers.

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yeah, i realized this as i was going through the list....but at the same time, everyone loves having a battle rez available and everyone loves totems. so i dont think boomkins and ele shammys would have any trouble getting raid slots

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Q u o t e:
Why should pure DPS classes not be better at DPS over a class who can do different things?

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ok, well lets talk about what counts as being able to do a "different thing". DPS and tanking count as different things....what about buffing, is that a different thing? probably not. how 'bout CC, is that a different thing? if CC is mandatory then yeah...i think CC definately counts as something different from dps.

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Q u o t e:
And just so you know, the part where you said ranged DPS'ers should have "taxed" DPS because they are ranged... I could hardly contain my laughter.

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i'm sure a lot of ranged dps will have that reaction...but everyone knows that there are several fights that are melee unfriendly....maybe just those specific fights should have a way of boosting melee dps to even it out.

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ok, thats a good point. but i dont think its valid to say a plate wearer has more survivablity than a ranged dps.

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Because mages, locks and hunters don't have to be up in the mobs/bosses face going "O HAI I KEEL U NAO", then yes, warriors have less survivability. There are a lot of bosses thus far where ranged dps seems to be far more important to have than your warrior, my dk or my rogue. Obviously, though, on those fights, you can expect your range to out dps your melee. In something like Patchwerk, however, I believe it's where melee dps should shine.

In the end, the tax is here to stay. A point I would argue with you is this: "what about my rogue? I have leather armor, far less survivability than you, bring 0 buffs and we have equal gear and skill... why should you, who can switch to tank in an instant, have equal or better dps than me?"

INB4TROLLZ - I did say in a previous post how irritated I was that my DK (who is a hybrid) can out dps my rogue. But DKs are OP and everyone knows that, so I guess less QQ moar pew pew on my part.

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Armor is a non-issue in raids, where the vast majority of non-tank damage is magical.. with warriors on the PTR taking 105% magical damage compared to mages who take 100% or less depending on spec.

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little fact check for you. mages can take anywhere from 103% magic dmg if fire spec. to a much less % if wearing mage armor.

I still don't see how warriors getting armor as a basically free state is in line with gear budget. In fact it might help balance PVP if everyone just had a standard value for armour that didn't vary from 40,000 to 3000. one of the biggest stat differentials in the game to try to balance around. an example of how armor became a problem is with Feral tanking druids. you all know the history there.

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Because mages, locks and hunters don't have to be up in the mobs/bosses face going "O HAI I KEEL U NAO", then yes, warriors have less survivability. There are a lot of bosses thus far where ranged dps seems to be far more important to have than your warrior, my dk or my rogue. Obviously, though, on those fights, you can expect your range to out dps your melee. In something like Patchwerk, however, I believe it's where melee dps should shine.

In the end, the tax is here to stay. A point I would argue with you is this: "what about my rogue? I have leather armor, far less survivability than you, bring 0 buffs and we have equal gear and skill... why should you, who can switch to tank in an instant, have equal or better dps than me?"

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i agree with you 100% about patchwerk. melee should shine, but it seems to be Blizz's wish that in a fight like patchwerk rogues/mages/warlocks/hunters will be on top, and hybrids will be a slight notch below them which i think is not right.

and really if you go down that list and factor in all the 'taxex' i think rogues would come out at the top of the dps charts...because you're right...they dont bring much to a raid other than their dps.

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Q u o t e:


i agree with you 100% about patchwerk. melee should shine, but it seems to be Blizz's wish that in a fight like patchwerk rogues/mages/warlocks/hunters will be on top, and hybrids will be a slight notch below them which i think is not right.

and really if you go down that list and factor in all the 'taxex' i think rogues would come out at the top of the dps charts...because you're right...they dont bring much to a raid other than their dps.

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The tax is meant as a way to say, "OK warrior, you can be a tank with gear swap and click of a button". While a mage, lock or hunter have the three options of dps/dps/dps in their trees. Should warriors do more damage than, say, a druid or a paladin that can heal/tank/dps? Yes, I think they should, simply because they can't swap out to heal, while a druid or a paladin can.

Not saying people should be pigeon-holed into tanking or healing just because their class can do it, but I am saying that they should be taxed because of that ability.

Unless you want to give rogues a healing tree. Because, you know, that makes a lot of sense. Epic band-aids.

The forums needed another one of these threads.

Really, it did.