World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Hybrids and thier dps 'tax'

Sharrow

< Pig and Whistle Soci… >

Kirin Tor

60. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 03:01:57 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

I raid because I like raiding, I'm a pure DPS class but i still don't get to play the spec I want to, Why because its DPS sucks.

That's a different issues, and yes, it does suck. I spent most of my BC raiding time as prot off-tanking because ret's DPS sucked so hard. All specs of all classes should be viable for their intended role at all levels of end-game play, and it's a pity that the game is not at that point (and due to its complexity will probably never be).

By the by, I'm not actually that upset by a small (~5%) 'hybrid' or 'utility' tax. It's when people start yelling for a larger one that I start getting irritated. However, it's my belief that the vast majority of people actually play a given class because they like it's style or it's image rather than because it maxes their epeen for no effort. The ultra-hardcore may make their choices based solely on in-game 'power' or whatever, but they are a tiny minority and will find the slightest advantage and exploit it no matter what - balancing round them is fruitless and probably pointless as well.

Dawnsorrow

Shadow Council

61. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 03:48:52 PM PDT

The tax is to motivate people who rolled classes that can heal/tank to actually do that. Hybrids not healing/tanking are those causing healer/tank shortage.

I apologize for my poor english.

Q u o t e:
Rogues do it from behind, mages do it with peer review.

-Zaldinar
"Calzoncillos del Gladiador Enfadado"--->WoW Translated :S

Dawnsorrow

Shadow Council

63. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 03:57:23 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Pures not rerolling healers/tanks are those causing healer/tank shortage.

(What, it's just as true.)

Cause rerolling=respeccing.

Also, if that was the case, no one would roll a pure. Maybe there'd be 1 hunter for every 5 pallies, 1 rogue for every 10 druids... And, in fact, it's a bit what would start happening were the people starting to play know about the hybrid vs pure issue.

I apologize for my poor english.

Q u o t e:
Rogues do it from behind, mages do it with peer review.

-Zaldinar
"Calzoncillos del Gladiador Enfadado"--->WoW Translated :S

Absinthemind

< Jukebox >

Azgalor

64. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 04:04:14 PM PDT

Christ, what's next? Taxing pallies and druids tanking and healing abilities because they can do all 3 roles?

5% is fairly insignificant right now. Maybe later, when damage scales up considerably, well see a difference, but its mostly a gear issue. Maybe a laziness issue, too

There may be a grain of truth in a beach of lies, but that doesn't make it any less irritating.

If everyone thought alike, you wouldn't be reading this.

Dawnsorrow

Shadow Council

65. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 04:09:38 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Christ, what's next? Taxing pallies and druids tanking and healing abilities because they can do all 3 roles?

5% is fairly insignificant right now. Maybe later, when damage scales up considerably, well see a difference, but its mostly a gear issue. Maybe a laziness issue, too

Next? Hybrids have been buffed in damage so many times. Did you live in the time where mage and rogue were the only real DPS? If we follow the trend, hybrids will be the only way to DPS soon.

Edit: I say that cause you make it sound like hybrids got nerfed to have a 5% tax.

Also, healer do a bit less of DPS compared to warrior/DK from what I understand, that is cause healing is more rquired than tanking cause usually there's only one tanking.

[ Post edited by Dawnsorrow ]

I apologize for my poor english.

Q u o t e:
Rogues do it from behind, mages do it with peer review.

-Zaldinar
"Calzoncillos del Gladiador Enfadado"--->WoW Translated :S

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

66. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 05:23:25 PM PDT

Must... not... reply... to... thread....

Argh.

Then again maybe we need a "pure vs. hybrid debate" forum. :)

Our logic is actually pretty simple. If hybrid classes can do the same dps as pure classes, then why have pure classes in the game? So we design the pure classes to do slightly higher dps.

We try very hard not to define "slightly." I probably got cornered by a bunch of angry posters in a dark alley one evening and blurted out "5%!" Or maybe someone in the forums suggested 5% and it stuck.

Why don't we like to refer to very explicit numbers like 5%? Because look what happens. A fine guild like Premonition or Ensidia posts their Ulduar parses, and players jump on them and say "ZOMG that mage is below the warrior," or "ZOMG that rogue is 7% above the paladin." It just isn't going to turn out that way on every parse, folks. Encounters are very different from each other. Gear varies. Even for fantastic guilds, skill varies. Players have to deal with things like lag or whatever mods they use or just dumb luck. RNG exists in boss fights. Strings of crits for a Fire mage or strings of parries for a DK tank can change the outcome enormously.

Saying that pures should beat hybrids by 5% is like saying a penny should be tails 50% of the time. If you flip a penny infinite times, yes, it will be tails half the time. But if you flip the penny three time and don't get any tails, you shouldn't take the penny to the bank and tell them it's broken.

Our goal is to give every class reasonable raid buffs and utility. None of them should be so good that you earn a spot just because of that utility. Plenty of times, your utility isn't going to be as useful because someone else has already brought that buff. This is by design. However, if you feel your class just got boned in the buff department, that is a great thing to bring up (though probably not in this thread). We used to penalize classes who had excellent buffs. Now we try to spread the wealth of both buffs and dps a lot better.

We want you to get a spot because you know what the blank you're doing, not because your class is programmed to always do top dps or inflate raid dps through a miraculous spell that you impart by clicking a button every 30 min.

Play your class to the best of your ability. If you do so, you will be very high on the damage meters, even if you are a druid, priest, warrior, DK, shaman or paladin. You won't top it on every fight. Some fights are better for some classes than others. Some players have better luck. Over time, the trends will emerge and most raiding players will figure them out. For our part, we will keep jimmying the numbers to get the results we want.

P.S. Don't look for me to address this issue too often, because I have done it a few times now. Dead horse is dead. :)

Sanctity

< IDFE >

Draenor

67. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 05:25:48 PM PDT

No beat it again!

Mith

Lightbringer

68. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 05:30:02 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Must... Our goal is to give every class reasonable raid buffs and utility. None of them should be so good that you earn a spot just because of that utility.

MOONKIN!?!?!?!

HEROISM?!?!?!?!

[ Post edited by Mith ]

Mith is an exploiting slore with all the charm and social grace of a rabid dog. His inability to play this game fairly and as intended is matched only by his cowardice in the face of his betters.

Dawnsorrow

Shadow Council

69. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 05:30:21 PM PDT

So, when I said this:

Q u o t e:
The tax is to motivate people who rolled classes that can heal/tank to actually do that. Hybrids not healing/tanking are those causing healer/tank shortage

I was kindof right, but pulling it from the other side?

I apologize for my poor english.

Q u o t e:
Rogues do it from behind, mages do it with peer review.

-Zaldinar
"Calzoncillos del Gladiador Enfadado"--->WoW Translated :S

Urgency

< Justice >

Blackrock

70. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 05:33:01 PM PDT

How much do I get back in tax returns?

Dawnsorrow

Shadow Council

71. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 05:46:40 PM PDT

This issue would be easier if every class was a hybrid (like, mages could heal, and hunter pets, locks and rogues could consisntently tank)
Gah, fix the forums too please. Sick of "forum error"
12 times already on this single post, including 4 general error 60 secs to post.

I apologize for my poor english.

Q u o t e:
Rogues do it from behind, mages do it with peer review.

-Zaldinar
"Calzoncillos del Gladiador Enfadado"--->WoW Translated :S

Fordprefect

< True Blood >

Madoran

72. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 05:46:56 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Must... not... reply... to... thread....

Argh.

Then again maybe we need a "pure vs. hybrid debate" forum. :)

Our logic is actually pretty simple. If hybrid classes can do the same dps as pure classes, then why have pure classes in the game? So we design the pure classes to do slightly higher dps.

We try very hard not to define "slightly." I probably got cornered by a bunch of angry posters in a dark alley one evening and blurted out "5%!" Or maybe someone in the forums suggested 5% and it stuck.

Why don't we like to refer to very explicit numbers like 5%? Because look what happens. A fine guild like Premonition or Ensidia posts their Ulduar parses, and players jump on them and say "ZOMG that mage is below the warrior," or "ZOMG that rogue is 7% above the paladin." It just isn't going to turn out that way on every parse, folks. Encounters are very different from each other. Gear varies. Even for fantastic guilds, skill varies. Players have to deal with things like lag or whatever mods they use or just dumb luck. RNG exists in boss fights. Strings of crits for a Fire mage or strings of parries for a DK tank can change the outcome enormously.

Saying that pures should beat hybrids by 5% is like saying a penny should be tails 50% of the time. If you flip a penny infinite times, yes, it will be tails half the time. But if you flip the penny three time and don't get any tails, you shouldn't take the penny to the bank and tell them it's broken.

Our goal is to give every class reasonable raid buffs and utility. None of them should be so good that you earn a spot just because of that utility. Plenty of times, your utility isn't going to be as useful because someone else has already brought that buff. This is by design. However, if you feel your class just got boned in the buff department, that is a great thing to bring up (though probably not in this thread). We used to penalize classes who had excellent buffs. Now we try to spread the wealth of both buffs and dps a lot better.

We want you to get a spot because you know what the blank you're doing, not because your class is programmed to always do top dps or inflate raid dps through a miraculous spell that you impart by clicking a button every 30 min.

Play your class to the best of your ability. If you do so, you will be very high on the damage meters, even if you are a druid, priest, warrior, DK, shaman or paladin. You won't top it on every fight. Some fights are better for some classes than others. Some players have better luck. Over time, the trends will emerge and most raiding players will figure them out. For our part, we will keep jimmying the numbers to get the results we want.

P.S. Don't look for me to address this issue too often, because I have done it a few times now. Dead horse is dead. :)

<3 GC.

Also, my penny is broken. Please fix it or I'm cancelling my account. That is all. =P

Has his Towel

Fordprefect, 80 Hunter
Architeuthis, 80 Failadin - Defenestrate, 65 Fail Knight
Bloodsail Admiral Hordeprefect, 71 Warlock

Ditu

< Shadow Protectorate >

Doomhammer

74. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 05:47:44 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Must... not... reply... to... thread....

Saying that pures should beat hybrids by 5% is like saying a penny should be tails 50% of the time. If you flip a penny infinite times, yes, it will be tails half the time. But if you flip the penny three time and don't get any tails, you shouldn't take the penny to the bank and tell them it's broken.

Or perhaps more accurately for these forums, you shouldn't take the penny to the bank and ask them to nerf nickels. :/

(PS Nerf dimes. Seriously, WTF.)

Fordprefect

< True Blood >

Madoran

76. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 05:49:18 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Or perhaps more accurately for these forums, you shouldn't take the penny to the bank and ask them to nerf nickels. :/

(PS Nerf dimes. Seriously, WTF.)

LMAO. Well-played, sir.

Has his Towel

Fordprefect, 80 Hunter
Architeuthis, 80 Failadin - Defenestrate, 65 Fail Knight
Bloodsail Admiral Hordeprefect, 71 Warlock

Demimas

< Killing Is Our Busin… >

Skullcrusher

77. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 05:51:38 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Dead horse is dead.

This.

Turli

< Everest >

Black Dragonflight

78. Re: Hybrids and thier dps 'tax' 03/21/2009 05:53:13 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Then stop giving pures utility and unique buffs that no other class can replicate.

Why should hybrids be the only classes that provide buffs?

Forum > CLASS ROLES > DAMAGE DEALING