At the moment we are tied for last place with warriors in most arena rankings, and warriors are getting HUGE buffs for 3.1. Outside of a singular 3v3 comp in RMP (which can't crack top 10 on American tournament realms), rogue doesn't have a single top comp in any bracket. Is your message "unless you can't find a top mage + priest, don't play arena as a rogue?" It sure feels like it, because in all other comps, you can replace the rogue with another class and achieve superior results.

Rogues have the worst mobility, survivability and damage of any true melee classes in PVP. Other classes are seeing big PVP changes for 3.1, we need help before it is too late! So far all you have given us, is more PVE damage. I have watched patch after patch after patch gone by on the PTR, today's patch had changes for 9 out of 10 classes, guess which class was left out?

Lower Mobility Than Plate:

Warriors have 15 second intercepts plus snare/root removal + instant intercept CD refresh on a 45 second cooldown. Feral druid's have unlimited snare/root removals, plus 15 second CD feral charges. Rogues have . . . two sprints (useless against snares), two vanishes (often need to be saved for survivability/offense), or a 30 second CD shadowstep (which forces you to sacrifice a ton of damage) that can't even be used in root. Why is a light armor melee class less mobile than a heavy armor melee class? There is no easier class to kite than rogue, even death knights have 20 second CD death grip's, and paladins have 20 second CD blessing of freedoms.

Lower Survivability Than Cloth:

Rogue is the only class that can't survive a single stun. Kidney shot, hammer of justice, intercept, you name it, you can play the entire game perfectly, and a single intercept can bring you from 100-0 that is with almost 800 resilience and 3/3 deadened nerve on my rogue. Against any team with a rogue, the strategy is train the rogue, because good things will happen when you do it (like a out of mana/CD healer, or more often than not, a dead rogue).

Dodge is supposed to be our saving grace, yet even evasion itself is useless against the WOTLK melee classes, death knight and retribution paladin both have a ton of damage that ignore our evasion. You gave warriors 1234567 more ways to activate their overpower. And unless you want rogues to outmuscle plate armor, most of the time we are chasing a cloth/mail while a heavy plate like DK is hammering us from behind all game long, ignoring our dodge completely.

Lower Damage Than . . . Every DPS Class

Let's see, if I don't wear heavy resilience, I go down in 2-3 hits. If I do wear heavy resilience, every DPS class in full PVP gear does more damage than me. Blood / Shadowfrost DK? It is more like "do they outdamage me by 50% or 100%"?. Fury warriors? They actually kill healers if left to go 1v1 with them, we don't. Hunter/warlock/mage? Full damage from range that can't be stopped at all, vs a class that has to run for his life (or kited all game long)? Did I mention we are easier to CC than any other melee class? Warrior/DK/Feral Druid all have fear immunes. We have absolutely nothing.

No Unique Utility

Healing debuff and snare? Warrior/hunter's don't go down in a single global (or in the case of shaman/druid, it doesn't even cost them a full global). Stuns? What class doesn't have stun duration reduction, or stun damage reduction, or ability to break stuns on demand? That would be . . . rogues! And you took our signature ability, the kidney shot, which cost us a huge chunk of burst damage to use, and made it share DR with all other stuns. Oh yes, you gave paladins, the most popular healer in the game the ability to remove stuns on demand for anyone on his team. Expose armor? Used to be good against cloth/leather/mail, now you made it worthless against EVERY CLASS. With warriors getting an ability to remove invulnerability, where is our niche? Even retribution paladin's hammer of justice is a superior stun to kidney shot.

Suggested Changes:

1) Delete Sleight of Hand from subtlety (who the hell came up with this talent? Did they really think subtlety rogues needed improved feint?), replace it with nerves of steel, which clearly doesn't belong in a PVE tree. This is our anti-stun talent, it makes us in-line with all other classes. Move enveloping shadows to where nerves of steel is, it is a PVE talent that should be in a PVE tree.

2) Delete Filthy Tricks, and give us improved shadowstep which lowers the CD by 5/10 seconds, preferably reduce the energy cost by 50/100% as well.

3) Swap deadly brew and improved poisons, and buff improved poisons for PVE rogues. Every rogue PVP spec deserves deadly brew, it is our only defense when our poisons are gone in one global or less against any class. Make the cripple poison proc from deadly brew instant.

Agreed, some thing must be done...

FIX VANISH, i petition that 3.1 can't be released till vanish is fixed

but seriously, i agree...

I love how shamans are mentioned once in this PvP Arena Thread =)

If I'm not Resto, GTFO out of Arena? Gotchya.

Ya blizz buff rogues. They wern't op all the way through bc. They need to be able to...

hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo 172 point EVIXERATE hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo hemo

Rogues are fine, l2p.

4) Add the interrupt effect back to deadly throw, or give it a root effect, this ability is so worthless in WOTLK I use it once every 20 arena matches. 50% snare for a couple of seconds at the cost of all of my combo points, I still won't catch up to anyone when I am snared myself!

5) Kidney shot needs to be special. It is our signature move, it should not share DR with any other stuns, because we are the class that relies most on stuns. Put cheap shot back on DR with other stuns, and give kidney shot some sort of special effect similar to warlock death coil's horror effect, so the only thing that breaks/affects it, is the PVP trinket. Rogue should have without any question, the best single stun in the game.

7) Hemo needs to make up its mind. Either it needs to be worth the damage per energy as a main attack (at least 125% weapon damage to be competitive, and sinister calling needs to be back to 10%), or it needs to bring a much more significant debuff (perhaps it can allow rogue bleed effects to crit/refresh, with a much longer duration / charge count?).

The one thing that concerns me more than anything else, is your lack of creativity with the rogue class in WOTLK. All other classes got something unique/innovative for PVP, while we are still playing CB/prep/mutilate, a spec that plays/feels very similar to CB/prep/hemo of classic WOW, a big step backward from shadowstep days of TBC!

Dismantle is as useful as warrior disarm, as every serious arena player has a weapon chain. Deadly brew was cool for a while until you nerfed mind numbing poison into the ground so now it feels exactly like wound/crippling days. Shadow dance not only has a longer cooldown than burst abilities from other classes, it is also much much more restrictive and you have zero CC protection during it, and you give up once again, a huge chunk of sustained damage for going that deep into subtlety. Can't you be a little more creative with our class? Hunger for blood was an amazing idea, giving a spec without prep a low CD counter to either magical or physical effects, but you took away the PVP portion completely instead of tweaking it. And I still don't know what is killing spree doing at 51 combat, a burst move in a sustained PVE tree? Why isn't this in the subtlety tree paired with hemo?

I guess back to my original question. Is that it? Is that all we going to get for 3.1? The rogue class is gifted with the most talented/creative players of any class, and we will not give up the love of our community regardless of your patches. But is it really that difficult to look at the arena rankings and reach the conclusion that those three classes need significant nerfs with their 30%/20%/20% presentation on SK-100? Where are the REAL nerfs for those classes in 3.1?

Lol I realized I trolled "the great ming to l2p, haha"


but srsly.



hemohemohemohemoqqmoarhemohemo

I personally agree on many points in this, however I dont feel a blue will respond at all.

Is it HONESTLY that hard to program a simple .5-1sec immunity from everything but DOTs and bleeds when you vanish?

Its not the SPELL thats the problem, which they haven't seemed to get through they're heads, its LATENCY. Not that hard to figure out.


Personally though, If other classes are lowered down to damage around my level, and Shadowstep were trainable (without the movement buff and damage buff) I would be content. Because like Ming said, every time I think of a Melee class I think of some sort of Catchup, so to speak.

Warriors-Intercept
Paladins-Although not a pure DPS they do have Rep/HoJ, Which doesnt exactly count considering that they again, are not a pure.
Feral Druids-Feral Charge
Death Knights-Death Grip
Shamans-Although not a valid comparison, Frost Shock and Ghost Wolf, as they again are not a Pure DPS class.

Other than that, I probably would settle with no damage nerfs to other classes if they gave us trainable Shadowstep (Again, without damage, and Speed Bonus), Oh and while I'm at it, Make it usuable when snared, thats when we need it most, whats the point of making a spell just to say "Dont use it when you need it most."

Probably the final thing I'd say is survivability, with so many DKs/Hunters, they eat right through evasion.
Evasion-Why only have 25% vs hunters but 50% vs Melee, this is useless RNG.
Cloak of Shadows-Why 90% again there is RNG and then there is useless RNG.
In my mind though I personally beleive Evasion should be the first to fix.

They should get on their game with 3.1. PvE while most of the game, is not all of the game.

Rogues have enjoyed being the top of the food chain for the majority of the time that WoW has been out. Unfortunately, DK's take no skill, so whatever ... rogues didn't either pre-BC unless you were fighting a skilled mage ... hey, hehe, some things never change.

I completely agree. Plate armor is destroying rogues as every class now can come apparently with in 5% damage of pure damage classes such as a rogue and most of those classes have spells and abilities that negate armor. All someone has to do is sit on a rogue in arena and deal out massive dps since we wear leather and kite us which can bring our damage down to none in some cases.

Rogues need some small utility buffs to specific specs to bring us back in line and give us a chance to equal damage done by other classes. Don't get me wrong rogues can be and are strong in shorter fights but as games drag on rogues just become useless and don't stand much of a chance, especially against deathknights and paladins.

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Q u o t e:
I love how shamans are mentioned once in this PvP Arena Thread =)

If I'm not Resto, GTFO out of Arena? Gotchya.

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If Im not Mutilate then I have to GTFO of the arena.

This is no different dont whine about having one viable spec

because one viable spec


IS BETTER THEN NONE.

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Q u o t e:
Rogues have enjoyed being the top of the food chain for the majority of the time that WoW has been out. Unfortunately, DK's take no skill, so whatever ... rogues didn't either pre-BC unless you were fighting a skilled mage ... hey, hehe, some things never change.

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so simply because they were overpowered, by no fault of the player, they should be penalized ad nauseum? Gotchya

Soon as rogues are not killing every lock in sight before they can move you can have your so called pvp buffs. I dont feel bad for you.

Everyone has complaints about limitations of thier class. As a lock, rogues = death. My options against them are near nil (assuming both have all cooldowns up) So I give little weight to your arguments save one: Rankings.

The one true metric of the "OP" factor is where classes are distributed within arena rankings. While your example of no rogues in the top 10 is a good start, I'd suggest looking more broadly than the top 10 as the sample size there is too small. If the rogue containing teams all lie at the bottom of the barrel (they very well may) then yeah, there is an imbalance.

Try to avoid simple examples like the warrior intercept x2 vs your shadowstep x1. Arguments such as these degrade rapidly. For instance I would counter the 2 vs 1 distance closing argument with how u can stealth to me, effectively closing distance. Then you counter with me dropping an AoE, which I then counter with the mana loss it causes me, then you counter with liftap, then i counter with less health, then you with fear, then me with stun... i think you get the picture.

The only way to judge the entire ensemble that is a class is the rankings, as hopefully there are enough people so that skill, gear, luck, and combinations are averaged out to leave only class differences.

Here we go again...Ming QQing about the same stuff he has been for the last 3 years now. l2p kid

"warriors are getting HUGE buffs for 3.1"



Are you out of your F$(*% mind? This is blasphemy.

/bump

Please address rogue pvp viability, specifically survivability and maneuverability.

DUDE WE GOT FAN OF KNIVES.

Looks like I'll be sitting out of PvP for longer than I had initially thought.

Oh well.

MOAR PVE TIMEZ

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Q u o t e:
Everyone has complaints about limitations of thier class. As a lock, rogues = death. My options against them are near nil (assuming both have all cooldowns up) So I give little weight to your arguments save one: Rankings.

The one true metric of the "OP" factor is where classes are distributed within arena rankings. While your example of no rogues in the top 10 is a good start, I'd suggest looking more broadly than the top 10 as the sample size there is too small. If the rogue containing teams all lie at the bottom of the barrel (they very well may) then yeah, there is an imbalance.

Try to avoid simple examples like the warrior intercept x2 vs your shadowstep x1. Arguments such as these degrade rapidly. For instance I would counter the 2 vs 1 distance closing argument with how u can stealth to me, effectively closing distance. Then you counter with me dropping an AoE, which I then counter with the mana loss it causes me, then you counter with liftap, then i counter with less health, then you with fear, then me with stun... i think you get the picture.

The only way to judge the entire ensemble that is a class is the rankings, as hopefully there are enough people so that skill, gear, luck, and combinations are averaged out to leave only class differences.

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he is not looking at top 10, he's looking at top 100 in SK-gamings. it's fair enough to judge if rogue is fine or broken.

I agree with Ming, bump !