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Q u o t e:

The fires typically do a lot more damage than Seal of Blood. What is the most you have ever been bled for on a Judgement crit? Maybe 10K? And that’s a crit. No offense, but your healers probably laugh at the kind of damage you are inflicting on yourself. The tank is getting hit for much more, much faster and the fires or big AE sprays generally do more. A stray PoM or CL can probably top you off. I know you don’t want to use Command, but if you’re sitting at 10% of your health or you know the dragon is about to breathe, it may be an attractive option until you get healed back up again. I know the self-damage is a concern of the paladins though, and we’ll keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn’t feel like too much of a liability in raids.

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I feel that 1 ret paladin brings enough healing to the table via judgement of light to make up for this extra damage we take. However, any ret paladins after that, are there for damage. Rets are bottom damage right now on test. Being a class that takes the most damage (non tank) and deals the least, essentially only having enough utility to warrant 1 being brought to any raid, goes totally against "bring the player not the class". The SA/recoil mechanic no longer has its synergy. there's no reason to keep it that way. If you feel blood with no recoil is too good for pvp, buff the utility on seal of command. Make pvp'ers want to use it over blood.

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Q u o t e:

The fires typically do a lot more damage than Seal of Blood. What is the most you have ever been bled for on a Judgement crit? Maybe 10K? And that’s a crit. No offense, but your healers probably laugh at the kind of damage you are inflicting on yourself. The tank is getting hit for much more, much faster and the fires or big AE sprays generally do more. A stray PoM or CL can probably top you off. I know you don’t want to use Command, but if you’re sitting at 10% of your health or you know the dragon is about to breathe, it may be an attractive option until you get healed back up again. I know the self-damage is a concern of the paladins though, and we’ll keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn’t feel like too much of a liability in raids.

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Healers do laugh. they laugh at how retribution is the only spec that hurts themself while dpsing. they laugh that no other dps class requires a healer to babysit them to do competitive damage. and command is hardly an alternative. i shouldn't have to drop my damage by a large amount just because the only method available for me to do damage has lowered my health to a dangerous level.

without SA, what possible reason is there to have recoil damage?

SoB recoil is an outdated mechanic from a time when Seal and judgement recoil was so much smaller than it is now, that it didn't matter. Now when I can effectively 2 shot myself on gimmick fights and regularly crit myself in the face for 4-5k, something has to change, especially with the amount of AoE damage that seems to be flying around in upcoming content. Recoil does nothing but hurt the DPS potential of an already gimped spec atm on the PTR.

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Q u o t e:
The fires typically do a lot more damage than Seal of Blood. What is the most you have ever been bled for on a Judgement crit? Maybe 10K? And that’s a crit. No offense, but your healers probably laugh at the kind of damage you are inflicting on yourself. The tank is getting hit for much more, much faster and the fires or big AE sprays generally do more. A stray PoM or CL can probably top you off. I know you don’t want to use Command, but if you’re sitting at 10% of your health or you know the dragon is about to breathe, it may be an attractive option until you get healed back up again. I know the self-damage is a concern of the paladins though, and we’ll keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn’t feel like too much of a liability in raids.

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I understand that it may not be a liability, but it's really annoying to me and seems pointless after the removal of spiritual attunement for retribution paladins. For me it just begs the question "why have this at all, what's the point?"

I realize I can switch seals, but doing so puts me a sizable difference between other dps when my dps is already on the lower end of the spectrum. Honestly, it seems to me that it has no purpose. I cannot think of a reason myself for having the self-damage for a comparatively weak amount of damage.

The only time I use command is on Loetheb because I would, well, kill myself using blood. As a result, my damage suffers a pretty large amount compared to other bosses, even with a constant spore buff. It really feels like I'm being punished because I want to do a lot of damage. I really can't think of a situation where a class has to hurt themselves so extensively to do comparable damage.

Yeah I know other classes have their life -> damage/mana, but really no comparison to a ret paladin. I realize there are penalties for say, warriors, like increased damage taken by a percentage in berserker stance, but I would really rather have that then knowing I'm going to be pwning my own face (this really seems to go against the paladin way as well, just saying.) Besides, I can avoid the damage entirely by not standing in the fire.

To recap: It's not that it's something that's a liability on the raid most of the time, but it seems to have no place or purpose aside from granting mana back from spiritual attunement (current patch only.) I question what the intent of keeping it in is and whether it really needs to stay with no obvious benefit to the paladin. If for some reason there needs to be a debuff, so be it, but I stress that this really is an annoying way to have it.

PoM doesn't work on it too. : (

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Q u o t e:


Healers do laugh. they laugh at how retribution is the only spec that hurts themself while dpsing. they laugh that no other dps class requires a healer to babysit them to do competitive damage. and command is hardly an alternative. i shouldn't have to drop my damage by a large amount just because the only method available for me to do damage has lowered my health to a dangerous level.

without SA, what possible reason is there to have recoil damage?

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To be accurate, both Warlocks and Shadow Priests hurt themselves while doing DPS.

Warlocks Life Tap to recover mana. Shadow Priests can use Shadow Word: Death (although given the poor scaling on this compared to Mind Flay it only has limited uses these days).

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Q u o t e:

The fires typically do a lot more damage than Seal of Blood. What is the most you have ever been bled for on a Judgement crit? Maybe 10K? And that’s a crit. No offense, but your healers probably laugh at the kind of damage you are inflicting on yourself. The tank is getting hit for much more, much faster and the fires or big AE sprays generally do more. A stray PoM or CL can probably top you off. I know you don’t want to use Command, but if you’re sitting at 10% of your health or you know the dragon is about to breathe, it may be an attractive option until you get healed back up again. I know the self-damage is a concern of the paladins though, and we’ll keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn’t feel like too much of a liability in raids.

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I predict this response will generate much love for GC...

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Q u o t e:


To be accurate, both Warlocks and Shadow Priests hurt themselves while doing DPS.

Warlocks Life Tap to recover mana. Shadow Priests can use Shadow Word: Death (although given the poor scaling on this compared to Mind Flay it only has limited uses these days).

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Check your WWS. I bet neither of them come close to the damage taken of a ret paladin using blood. A warlock can also be more judicious when he uses his lifetap. A ret does not want to hold his judgements back. It's your highest damaging ability. For max damage you must hit it every time it's up. Now I realise, dead men do 0 dps. I also see that no other class has to deal with something of this nature.

As far as Shadow Word: death is concerned, by limited, you must mean only in certain pvp situations.

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Q u o t e:


The fires typically do a lot more damage than Seal of Blood. What is the most you have ever been bled for on a Judgement crit? Maybe 10K? And that’s a crit. No offense, but your healers probably laugh at the kind of damage you are inflicting on yourself. The tank is getting hit for much more, much faster and the fires or big AE sprays generally do more. A stray PoM or CL can probably top you off. I know you don’t want to use Command, but if you’re sitting at 10% of your health or you know the dragon is about to breathe, it may be an attractive option until you get healed back up again. I know the self-damage is a concern of the paladins though, and we’ll keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn’t feel like too much of a liability in raids.

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Personally I'd rather use Command cause its more "fun" seeing the procs, but I can't if I want to maximize my dps potential, and keep my mana up so I don't.

I was ok with damaging myself knowing i was benefiting by a mana regen from getting healed, but without SA, I don't think I'll like at all damaging myself for no benefit other than to dps. Might make sense as a situational tanking seal, but doesn't make sense for a dps seal now from a "flavor" perspective. I'd rather see Seal of Righteousness and its judgement have more dps potential than Blood, and just a bit more than Command but not enough that you wouldn't want Command's burst for pvp.

A warlock can be smart about his life taps and use them at "safe" times and still do max dps. A paladin cannot hold his judgements back and do his potential max dps.

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Q u o t e:
The fires typically do a lot more damage than Seal of Blood. What is the most you have ever been bled for on a Judgement crit? Maybe 10K? And that’s a crit. No offense, but your healers probably laugh at the kind of damage you are inflicting on yourself. The tank is getting hit for much more, much faster and the fires or big AE sprays generally do more. A stray PoM or CL can probably top you off. I know you don’t want to use Command, but if you’re sitting at 10% of your health or you know the dragon is about to breathe, it may be an attractive option until you get healed back up again. I know the self-damage is a concern of the paladins though, and we’ll keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn’t feel like too much of a liability in raids.

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Seal of Blood is already a very big liability in several fights.

Using your example, a paladin takes 10,000 damage from a judgment. a Ret paladin's HP is somewhere in the vicinity of 20,000-25,000. Minimally here, he just dealt 40% of his HP in damage to himself. If the boss has a random-target ability, the paladin now risks being "gibbed." For example:
Kel'thuzad has Frost Blast. The paladin performs a few melee hits, then judgment. He is down to roughly 56% HP. In 2 seconds, the paladin is dead. No healer can reasonably react in this amount of time due to lag and the randomness of the attack.

This may be an extreme example and not practical, but given the raid damage variables in Ulduar it is quite potential. In various WWS, a ret paladin is inflicting damage to himself that is sometimes over a third of the tank's incoming damage.

To move on, I would state that 10,000 HP is not a trivial sum for healers. This requires the use of a targeted heal to fully replenish, such as Holy Light or Greater Heal. Holy Light costs 1274 mana and Greater Heal at 32% base mana. In either case, there is a risk of reduced healing elsewhere due the time investment - even with beacon of light, since the paladin's efficiency is lost if someone performs a lower heal (wild growth, Circle of Healing). In a "More mana intensive" world, this is a definite liability.

This is also not something a stray PoM and such can compensate. Firstly, this is occurring every 7 seconds at around 7500 average damage (5000 normal, 10,000 crit with your numbers). There eventually has to be a direct heal given to the retribution paladin to maintain this, or several contributing healers.
Also, this is not the whole story. Given a raid damage situation, the paladin is consuming heals needed by the raid. Even if he is healed by a stray PoM or CoH, the healing deficit created by the paladin is not compensated. It is merely transferred to a different individual who would have otherwise received the Circle of Healing's benefit.

So, in sum, 10,000 damage when viewed by itself is not significant damage. It becomes significant when taking the time cost (and other resource costs) into account.

With the removal of Spiritual Attunement a paladin has no justification for the self damage. The system was unique, but unique at a detrimental cost.

Lastly, you mean Seal of Command. Seal of Command currently is not even worth the point even in PvE. Switching to Seal of Command is a DPS loss due to:
1. It requires a glyph to be functional
2. It has a 1s internal cooldown, making its return value less than its potential output.
3. Its real cost is the Seal DPS decrease and 2 GCD abilities lost from swapping back to Blood.
4. Its judgment's unique effect is lost in PvE on bosses and several trash mobs.
5. At maximum output, it still falls behind Seal of Blood (and potentially other seals).
Simply put, a paladin is better off switching to Seal of Vengeance, Seal of Righteousness, or simply stopping their attacks and waiting. If a paladin is healed quickly enough, Seal of Command may not even proc before Blood becomes an option again. In this case they waste DPS time in Command either by no procs or waiting to avoid GCD loss. This is in addition to Seal of Command's lower damage in the first place.

In PvP, Seal of Command is not used since it is simply not enough substantial damage. Retribution paladins perform a niche in PvP where utility is traded for heightened burst. Seal of Command is less potential burst than most, if not all, other classes. Thus a paladin's real trade off is utility and survivability since they must use Seal of Blood to compete, immediately putting his team at a disadvantage in terms of healing. At any rate, the self damage of Blood has not demonstrated itself to be a deterrent in PvP and has been demonstrated as a clear detriment to PvE viability.

So for competitive DPS in PvE, a paladin must detrimentally affect the raid in healing ability while bringing little to no compensation that cannot be easily provided otherwise (though I am loathe to use this argument). While they may remain viable, these factors do not lend themselves to ret paladins being competitive.

On the Paladin, Seal of Blood thing:

A retadin that I regularly do Naxx with typically takes more self damage than he does from every other source combined. While he doesn't really approach the tanks in terms of healing needed, he's quite the little mana sponge compared to every other non tank in the raid.

Also, on a run where things are going smoothly, it's very easy to not notice when his health spikes down. As a result he is by far the most likely person to die on any particular encounter. I can only imagine the situation getting worse as content actually becomes challenging to heal. Right now it's "Sorry, was making myself a drink and didn't notice you were almost dead" but it could very well be "Sorry, I saw you were low but I had to prioritize between you and the tank."

The situation is so annoying as a healer that I ended up dedicating a LOT of time learning about retadins, retadin rotations, gear, abilities, etc in the hope that I could "school" him in the ways of dealing DPS without killing himself and being a PITA for the healers. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much option except to use Seal of Blood, or else be a third class DPS.

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Q u o t e:

The fires typically do a lot more damage than Seal of Blood. What is the most you have ever been bled for on a Judgement crit? Maybe 10K? And that’s a crit. No offense, but your healers probably laugh at the kind of damage you are inflicting on yourself. The tank is getting hit for much more, much faster and the fires or big AE sprays generally do more. A stray PoM or CL can probably top you off. I know you don’t want to use Command, but if you’re sitting at 10% of your health or you know the dragon is about to breathe, it may be an attractive option until you get healed back up again. I know the self-damage is a concern of the paladins though, and we’ll keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn’t feel like too much of a liability in raids.

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Umm I don't like to take this route but I think you should brush up on some of the retribution numbers;

http://wowwebstats.com/axhg5vc6erism
http://wowwebstats.com/axhg5vc6erism?a=x1000000007c41ca

Retadin, Barrelroll, mostly all best in slot gear, dpsing Patchwerk, not a gimmick fight for us, has a max judgement crit for 14k. That's KILLER recoil, a potential 4500 damage every 7-8 seconds on top of anything else. It's even worse on gimmick fights. This number will only grow as we obtain better gear.

Please don't take a year to fix us again.

You know there's a problem when a Seal that you have to talent into does less damage than a baseline Seal.

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Q u o t e:
The fires typically do a lot more damage than Seal of Blood. What is the most you have ever been bled for on a Judgement crit? Maybe 10K? And that’s a crit. No offense, but your healers probably laugh at the kind of damage you are inflicting on yourself. The tank is getting hit for much more, much faster and the fires or big AE sprays generally do more. A stray PoM or CL can probably top you off. I know you don’t want to use Command, but if you’re sitting at 10% of your health or you know the dragon is about to breathe, it may be an attractive option until you get healed back up again. I know the self-damage is a concern of the paladins though, and we’ll keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn’t feel like too much of a liability in raids.

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My question now is, especially after seeing the design of the General Vezax encounter, you've taken pains to ensure that a Ret paladin with JotW cannot sneak in with Holy gear and evade the mana regeneration restrictions that you're placing on the encounter (for those that don't know, the first time someone with Judgments of the Wise talented hits him with a Judgment, they get an undispellable 75% healing debuff) and this will also prevent Ret from easing the strain they cause via self-damage though Art of War procs. So with this fight going to such extremes as to target a single talent for a debuff, I wonder how you can say it's insignificant for healers to have to spend ANY extra mana on healing Ret paladins?

Damage is one thing; right now, current PTRs have Ret doing rather abysmally and that can and will be buffed (or nerfed... should you really think that necessary) independent of the recoil damage issue. But you've taken pains to ensure that this damage is a penalty we cannot avoid; Divine Shield and PW:S and SS do not absorb it; ProM does not proc from it, as some priests have pointed out. SW:D recoil could bounce a ProM, so why can't SoB recoil? Is this just an overlooked minor issue like Sacred Shield scaling? Can we at least be thrown a bone here and get the seal damage itself increased if it's going to hurt us?

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Q u o t e:

The fires typically do a lot more damage than Seal of Blood. What is the most you have ever been bled for on a Judgement crit? Maybe 10K? And that’s a crit. No offense, but your healers probably laugh at the kind of damage you are inflicting on yourself. The tank is getting hit for much more, much faster and the fires or big AE sprays generally do more. A stray PoM or CL can probably top you off. I know you don’t want to use Command, but if you’re sitting at 10% of your health or you know the dragon is about to breathe, it may be an attractive option until you get healed back up again. I know the self-damage is a concern of the paladins though, and we’ll keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn’t feel like too much of a liability in raids.

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Ret hitting itself for 4k occasionally doesn't sound like much, almost seems like a trivial amount, until you realize we are doing it every 7 seconds, then all of the sudden the damage ret pallies are doing to themselves begins to get out of line, not to mention the fact that it is the only self-damaging ability that is actually useful, that you can kill yourself with. Locks have to lifetap ~30-45 seconds, hitting themselves for ~4k, and can decide when to tap without hurting their DPS at all (tapping early if you know some large AoE is coming for example), and yet with all these positives over JoB they cannot kill themselves with a misplaced tap. We do 4k damage to ourselves every 7 seconds, and if we delay the judgment it is at a huge DPS cost (since judgment is by far our highest damage on-use ability).

Switching to SoC is not a realistic option, you mention it like we would be taking a slight hit to DPS, in reality it is an absolutely enormous DPS loss to use SoC. Here are a few WWS parses to show you exactly how huge the difference is:

http://wowwebstats.com/ejxnd4xrwsbwc?s=117974-142807&m
^ Our Immortal run where I was being extra super careful, using SoC on any boss where SoB had a good chance of killing me (even in the ridiculously undertuned easy content that is Naxxramas)

http://wowwebstats.com/zslwspro5ey1i?s=106989-130227
^ Our 20-man the week after, where I was missing a few crucial melee buffs (10% AP buff, WF most of the time).




Remember, I am comparing a parse where I had every melee buff possible (except 2% physical damage, cause lawl arms or combat) versus a 20 man where fights were longer due to the lack of DPS, compounded with losing several key buffs.

Note some differences:

Gluth SoC: 526k damage done, 3681 DPS
Gluth SoB: 768k damage done, 4653 DPS

SoC on gluth = 1000 dps loss, or 21%.

Loatheb SoC: 1.1 mil damage done, 4919 DPS
Loatheb SoB: 1.4 mil damage done, 5566 DPS

SoC on Loatheb = ~600 dps loss, or 12%

*fun note on Loatheb, I took 6k less damage than the main tank (183k for MT, 177k for me). Had I had full melee buffs I would have taken more damage than the MT without a doubt.

Short little comparison here, but the point is pretty simple, if we are already 5-10% behind the "pures" switching to SoC will put us behind by anywhere from 20-30%. Basically if there is any fight where we will be forced to use SoC due to the potential deadliness of SoB then we might as well be replaced by an undergeared alt mage who will surely be able to beat SoC DPS.

SoB recoil is a huge problem, and this statement (even if I am taking it out of context, since this is the healer forums), makes me fear for my viability in Ulduar once we are working on the hard modes that are "balanced on a knife edge".

Loatheb is one of those gimmicky fights where the numbers are extreme. But generally, as ret, we are always taking more damage than any other dps.

We know that rets take more damage on average than any other non tank. We know that 1 ret with judgement of light can generally make up for this extra damage we take with the raid healing provided by light. Any more ret's than this are a liablitly from a min/max standpoint. I'm not for concessions generally, as a I feel the ret community has gotten a fairly raw deal for a long time. What if, the recoil was taken away, and light balanced to be more in favor of the holy paladin? I didn't spec to heal. I spec'd ret to be a competitive dps. Let holy have the more powerful judgement of light.

We all know that blood will become stronger in pvp...is that much of an issue at this point? Are the higher brackets swarmed with ret paladins? My understanding is that there is very little representation of ret in the 2k+ bracket (not counting the ret healers, those aren't real ret). If you want the pvpers to use command, buff it. Make it proc a snare while wielding a 2 hander. Give it some pvp utility.

Again, I don't like concessions, especially in this case, but there are options other than recoil on blood. I want to dps, I want to be competitive. I don't want to be a liability. Let holy do the bulk of the healing, let me do the damage.

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Q u o t e:


The fires typically do a lot more damage than Seal of Blood. What is the most you have ever been bled for on a Judgement crit? Maybe 10K? And that’s a crit. No offense, but your healers probably laugh at the kind of damage you are inflicting on yourself. The tank is getting hit for much more, much faster and the fires or big AE sprays generally do more. A stray PoM or CL can probably top you off. I know you don’t want to use Command, but if you’re sitting at 10% of your health or you know the dragon is about to breathe, it may be an attractive option until you get healed back up again. I know the self-damage is a concern of the paladins though, and we’ll keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn’t feel like too much of a liability in raids.

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Actually, we had our ret paladin crit himself for something like 44k on Razuvius due to the bug or whatever occurence causes you to hit that high on the understudies immedtiately following Razuvius's death. It would have been absolutely hilarious any other time it happened. Unfortunately, we were going for Immortal that week in Naxx, so "absolutely hilarious" turned into "are you #%$@ing kidding me?"

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Q u o t e:

The fires typically do a lot more damage than Seal of Blood. What is the most you have ever been bled for on a Judgement crit? Maybe 10K? And that’s a crit. No offense, but your healers probably laugh at the kind of damage you are inflicting on yourself. The tank is getting hit for much more, much faster and the fires or big AE sprays generally do more. A stray PoM or CL can probably top you off. I know you don’t want to use Command, but if you’re sitting at 10% of your health or you know the dragon is about to breathe, it may be an attractive option until you get healed back up again. I know the self-damage is a concern of the paladins though, and we’ll keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn’t feel like too much of a liability in raids.

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There are two +20 page threads on the issue of SoB/tM recoil damage. The community (from paladins of all specs to raid healers of any class) is utterly unanimous in its conclusions about the issue - something that you almost never see. The majority of the posts on the threads are well thought out and provide data and *reasonable* suggestions. Any flaming has been quickly halted and the threads pointed back on track because the paladin community NEEDS this to be heard. The only people who don't advocate removing SoB/tM recoil damage only do so because they are so disillusioned with Blizzard that they won't even bother trying. These threads should be your wet dream for a community atmosphere. Unity, Focus, Respect.

Your reply is that healers laugh at it and you'll "keep an eye on it"? Read the threads. Healers don't laugh at the damage as nothing, THEY want the recoil damage gone as much as we paladins do. Doucard has an amazing post with nothing but hard data showing why this self damage is absurd. Not a single other DPS class.. pure or hybrid, self damaging abilities or not comes even CLOSE to what we have to go through But no.. real live data has too many variables ...but I guess theory-crafting has too few? We get very frustrated with you. We never know what you want to see. Whenever we use any type of data to prove our point when it differs from yours.. you say its not good enough.

Anyways, after finally getting seals up to 30 minute duration, and judgment not consuming seals, now you WANT us to start seal twisting in fights? So, we get no more SA mana AND we have to spend MORE mana and a GCD switching seals so that we don't die? I don't even understand why its reasonable for the spell to have this 'feature' when no one else has to deal with it. Do shamen's shocks cause recoil? Do Heroic Strikes? Shadow Word: Death is the closest thing.. and that's on a 12 second cool-down... not EVERY hit and EVERY 7 seconds. I don't play a priest, but from what I hear its not even a staple of their rotation like judgment is for us. They can skip a SW:D if they're low on health, we CANT skip a judgment. We need the mana back from jotw, we need the crit debuff up, we need the judgment effect. What we DONT need is huge recoil damage every 7 seconds. Would the damage be laughable if every hybrid and/or pure dps in the raid was receiving such feedback?

If I were a raid leader in progression content, I'd think to myself, "well, every buff that ret pally has, someone else has.. and our holy pally has kings... shaman has wisdom, warrior has might, I'll bring another dps class that does more damage and doesn't hurt himself in the process."

You know whats easier than 'keeping an eye on it'? ...getting rid of it.

If we're supposed to guild kick everyone who doesn't play flawlessly, who is this content being made for? It doesn't seem like it's for casual guilds.

I'm willing to give GC the benefit of the doubt on this comments about SoB/M. Maybe I'm taking them out of context. Maybe he was having a bad day. But that can't be the consensus of the class developers if they have access to even half the data presented in the two excellent recoil threads in the pally forums.

1) It's not fun. Last time I checked, WoW is still a game. This is a huge quality of life issue as Blizz likes to put it. Remove it.

2) If healing the recoil is so inconsequential for healers then what is the point of the recoil. See 1 above.

3) Ret's should NOT be punished for doing their job in a raid. The better we get the more we are punished. No other melee dps has to go through this. It is unfair. Remove it.

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Q u o t e:



SoB recoil is a huge problem, and this statement (even if I am taking it out of context, since this is the healer forums), makes me fear for my viability in Ulduar once we are working on the hard modes that are "balanced on a knife edge".

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If things continue the direction they are going, there won't be ret pallies raiding in any guild that is serious about hard mode content. If the ret is a good player, the guild will just have him/her reroll/respec.