The amount of ignorance in this thread is staggering.

Even if a Holy Paladin decides to skip on more than half of his deep healing talents to get perma-Plea so that he can spam Mortal Strike'd Holy Lights with infinite mana all day all night, no sane Paladin here is asking that Plea's penalty be completely removed.

All we want is for Lay on Hands, JOL procs, SOL procs, healthstones, potions, Prayer of Mending procs, Earthshield procs and Lifebloom blooms to be exempt from the Plea penalty.

Yes, Flash of Light, Holy Light and Holy Shock should absolutely be penalized. Nobody is arguing here about that.

that is why blizzard added the 5% talent at the begining of the tree so that way we have to take it with dp having 100% uptime

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Q u o t e:
that is why blizzard added the 5% talent at the begining of the tree so that way we have to take it with dp having 100% uptime

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Again, staggering ignorance. Divinity does not make up for Plea's penalty by even half, and in fact only magnifies how much we lose.

Staggering

what i like is that even currently w/o the healing debuff healthstones and pots seem like a splash in the bucket on 40k health pools.....so now instead of a splash we'll get a drip!

Judgement of Light I could care less about as prot truth be told. Lay on hands on the other hand completely neuters my other panic button which was already worse in the first place compared to all the health increase talents such as Last Stand.

Edit: My first first!

Yessssssssssssssssss

This idea gets the toastr seal of approval.

Ca-ching!

So I assume it cuts the healing of Divine Storm in half as well. Making the healing portion and the DS glyph even more useless than they currently are. 3.1 doesn't look fun at all.

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Q u o t e:
We'll discuss changing Divine Plea to just Flash of Light, Holy Light and Holy Shock.

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Probably a good idea since it reduces the healing done by Earthshield too, which I hear is bad if you're tanking.

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Q u o t e:
We'll discuss changing Divine Plea to just Flash of Light, Holy Light and Holy Shock.

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This is cool GC, but can I ask a earnest question? Before 3.1 the protection spec was the only tree not to have a active way to return mana. Holy paladins have Illumination and ret paladin's have jotw. Other none paladin trees have things like spirit/mp5 to rely on, gain rage upon hit, or have specific class skills used to return mana.

Finally protection is given a active way to return mana. But of course there is a catch, your healing output is halved. Why must protection ALWAYS be punished? ALWAYS. Why can't there just be a talent or a feature baked into the talent that gets rid of the healing penalty all together. Is it so much to ask? No other tree in the game gets a penalty for having a active way to restore their resources. None. I find it quite ridiculous that protection pallies even have to ask for the penalty to be removed in some form, when it shouldn't be there from the beginning. If anyone can tell me why we are getting hit hard by a penalty designed for holy, why prot paladin is the only tree that gets heavily penalized for something designed to penalized a totally different spec.

Spiritual Attunement: Yay!! Blizzard don't wants Ret and Holy to have it. Fine! But whats the solution? Make it a 2 point talent deep in the prot tree causing prot paladins to invest even MORE into a already bloated tree. The problem could of easily been solved by simply baking the effect into touched by the light instead of making prot players put even more points into the tree.

Divine Shield: There were lots of complaints about Divine Shield being outdated, that the 100% attack speed penalty no longer balanced the skill out. Yes, for RET! Holy was untouched by the change since they are spell casters. Prot however was hurt the most since the spec doesn't do much damage anyway. This skill went from something I may use to something I'd never ever use. Sacred duty could of easily removed the penalty, but no.

Divine Plea: The healing penalty was intended to make Holy have to consider if it was worth using or not instead of spamming it every time its up. I completely understand why the penalty is there. But what does it have to do with the protection tree? One would THINK that with DP becoming the tree's active mana resource that some where deep in the tree the penalty would be removed. But no, it stays for no apparent reason.

I didn't want to put the seal and judgment of wisdom change blizzard did shortly after 3.0 hit. It was changed not because of prot but for the other two specs of course. But who did the change hurt the most? Prot. Solo became simply unplayable and pvp was even more a joke than it is currently. Luckily they reverted some of the changes just a bit to make solo more bearable. Anyhow, my point is I'm just very very tired of getting the shaft when it comes to nerfs specifically aimed at certain trees. If a nerf is intended for holy or ret then do that. Don't include prot in it, but this is what happens again and again.

Thanks.

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Q u o t e:
We'll discuss changing Divine Plea to just Flash of Light, Holy Light and Holy Shock.

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There really shouldn't even BE a discussion.

Nerfing our oh #@*! button (Lay on hands) Just to keep Divine plea up is so ridiculously stupid as to be laughable.

I'd rather go without Divine plea just so I could use LoH when I needed it.

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Q u o t e:
We'll discuss changing Divine Plea to just Flash of Light, Holy Light and Holy Shock.

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Well why did you add the other heals in the first place. Lay on hands for instance is not affected currently on live.

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Q u o t e:


There really shouldn't even BE a discussion.

Nerfing our oh #@*! button (Lay on hands) Just to keep Divine plea up is so ridiculously stupid as to be laughable.

I'd rather go without Divine plea just so I could use LoH when I needed it.

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I completely agree, it shouldn't even be something to think about. There is absolutely no reason, NONE what so ever why prot is getting hit by a healing penalty intended for holy. No prot paladin should have to worry about a -50% healing penalty because it shouldn't be there for the tree. Its absurd.

I tell you, the whole design of paladins keep getting more and more fractured. I don't understand it in the slightest and I've been playing the game since original beta.

If they really want to solve the mana issue for prot/ret, then they should allow at least ret/prot to do sustainable threat/dps for at least 6 mins of the "blizz approved rotation" (since they don't want us spamming consecrate or other mana intensive abilities) via mana returned by judgements... period. Both prot and ret. Forget divine plea... make it a deep holy talent, I don't care. Protadin will never be viable in pvp (not really, there are some anomalies) if they have to be healed by another to use abilities.

Just stop cross nerfing all the different specs due to ret pvp burst, holy pvp survivability and pve mana regen. I mean, couldn't we all see this coming when mana regen scales off of int but mana cost stays constant. I brought this up in LK beta numerous times in the forums. So, as gear gets better, these nerfs are inversely impacting people without gear (i.e. the worse your gear is, the more the nerfs hurt).

It really makes me feel luke warm on my main. I was looking forward to dual speccing heals for a change of pace, but I've lost confidence in Bliz's ability to sort these things out before they go live.

It would seem to be a tad easy to say, we want ret/prot to do x dps/tps for 6 mins in pve using rotation x,y,z with 10 man/25 man buffs (perhaps a spectrum of 0 buffs to all buffs is in order?) and a mana potion. But instead, we have glyphs that make no sense, librams that are really weak, set bonuses that are meh (at best). Just seems so disjointed, it is disheartening.

I really, really don't like where it seems that Bliz is taking holy pallies (i.e. good in 25 man raid, ok in 10 man raids with gear, and better overgear heroics!). I'm fine with protadins, but why we have to be saddled with SA (making protadins mana starved in pvp), I don't know. And ret, well, the recent changes are just half-baked (are the mana costs and cool downs for, say, exorcism going to be lowered, I doubt it!).

Ah well. What can you do but hope they get things together before 3.1 ships.

I'm still trying to figure out why DP is based on total mana, instead of base mana, if it's only meant to be used by Tankadins. Could avoid these sort of things if it was cleared up.

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Q u o t e:
I'm still trying to figure out why DP is based on total mana, instead of base mana, if it's only meant to be used by Tankadins. Could avoid these sort of things if it was cleared up.

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it IS supposed to be used by holy paladins. It is supposed to be a decision they make, to reduce the effect of their heals for a few seconds to regenerate mana.

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Q u o t e:
We'll discuss changing Divine Plea to just Flash of Light, Holy Light and Holy Shock.

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Why not have Divine Plea do a different negative effect that doesn't reduce the amount of healing done? For example, if Divine Plea instead increased the cast time of spells cast while under its effects, it wouldn't affect Ret or Prot as much as a reduction in healing done, but still keeps that choice option in for Holy Paladins.