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Q u o t e:


First, I have no idea what you're trying to say in the first two paragraphs. What?

Second, you need to realize that the following two Mages will not produce the same DPS.

Mage #1 (has a 50% crit rate): Crit -> Crit -> Hit -> Hit -> Crit -> Crit -> Hit -> Hit
Mage #2 (has a 50% crit rate): Crit -> Hit -> Crit -> Hit -> Crit -> Hit -> Crit -> Hit

The whole point is that Mages need to crit twice in a row to proc Hot Streak. That's what you fail to understand.

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And a 5% change isn't going to change anything!

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Q u o t e:
And a 5% change isn't going to change anything!

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You are missing the point.

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Q u o t e:


And a 5% crit difference isn't going to change anything. Critting 55% of the time compared to 50% of the time is not noticible, even to a mage. I can say that because I've done Loatheb. When a mage gets the 50% buff sure, his DPS increases, but by may be 20% at most.

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5% crit is HUUGGGEEE as a Fire Mage. Uninformed, anecdotal evidence will not prove your point.

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Q u o t e:
And a 5% change isn't going to change anything!

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... except the lost DPS.
... and the lost mana regeneration.

Stop trolling. And by the way, you can't claim that raids will still take both Mages and Warlocks. Sunwell says otherwise.

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Q u o t e:


Maybe on a 2 minute fight, which most are now, but on the nice long ones OOM means less DPS.

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Mage armor or Molten... on a "nice long" fight the mages still goes OOM. So, what's the point? You still do not get it.

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Q u o t e:


Mage armor or Molten... on a "nice long" fight the mages still goes OOM. So, what's the point? You still do not get it.

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Everyone's getting rick rolled. Ignore the warlockery trolling.

Ok, so at least you (GC) clarified your post.

However, since the last few months have been nerf nerf nerf for mages and while some were indeed merited (slow down from 60 percent to 30) others were not (stealth Abar Nerf anyone?). Now, do you think that the patch that releases buffs for most classes, especially the 3 other pure classes, is a good time to implement yet another nerf for mages?

I mean, yea, you are the lead designer, its your game, but at some point marketing and common sense have to come into play, especially when you are changing a talent that no one considered broken.

Right now, it appears that you broke something that we liked, gave us stuff that we didn't need or is flat out useless.

The glyph that gives Mirror Images the Winters Chill effect that stacks with Scorch is a perfect example. You basically gave us the ability to increase raid crit to 10 percent, like it is now, only we have to waste a major glyph spot on it and hope that the boss doesn't have a raid aoe type damage so that the images survive long enough to provide the buff, which even at the full duration won't be as good as it is now.

You feel like a static 10 percent to crit is too much for the duration of the entire fight, but not if we get lucky and have our MI apply it for ~30 seconds if they manage to live?

Combined with the fire PVP changes that essentially make it worse, and the spirit conundrum, many mages are becoming a bit concerned with our future.

Losing that 5% crit is about losing 300 dps as FFB specced and TtW/Fireball specced.

Overall, I don't mind losing that 5% crit.

However, I would like to see the debuff easier to apply.

Destro Locks: 3.0 sec to fully apply the debuff. 2.5 sec talented. 1 cast.
5 talent points. 5% increased damage. Tier 1.

Fire Mage: 7.5 sec to fully apply the debuff. 3 sec glyphed. 2-5 casts.
3 talent points. Tier 4.

Frost Mage: 13 sec to fully apply the debuff. ~5-6 sec if using Ice Lance to apply the debuff. 5 casts.
3 talent points. Teir 6.

Between the pros and cons of each, it does cost a Destro lock more talent points, but they get an increased damage and can apply it faster. Plus, it's in the first tier, which allows other specs to pick it up if no one else in the raid can apply the debuff.

Fire mages only cost 3 talents, but it's deeper in the tree, which puts the talent almost out of reach for other specs. You lose a lot of dps by trying to reach it in other specs. It takes longer to apply and needs a glyph to apply faster. No added bonus to the talent.

Frost mages again only cost 3 talents, but it's so deep in the tree that only Frost mages can pick it up. It takes a lot longer to apply, but doesn't use a glyph. No added bonus to the talent.


It would be nice to see the talents evened out between all three specs and still keep it interesting. Maybe faster applications, the option to not use a glyph, or another incentive to spec into the talent (like the Destro lock's improved damage).

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Q u o t e:
The buff was just too potent to be something that offered benefits to the entire group. We want you to be more powerful in a group, but we are trying to rein in buffs that are so powerful that you feel like you have to cancel your run if you don't have them.

Even though we chilled out the magnitude of some of the buffs and debuffs, once groups started gearing up, things like dps and mana regen just went through the roof, largely because of these shared benefits.

We'll make sure Fire dps is still where it needs to be even with this change.

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So, could you do something along the lines of...

Improved Scorch.
Increases spell crit by 5% on the target. In addition, after casting Scorch, you will gain +5% crit for 30 seconds.

Would that be viable?

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Q u o t e:


1. Why was Improved Scorch considered too mandatory and too powerful while Curse of Elements is not?

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CoE replaces a damaging curse. If you want to cry about something cry about Ebon Plaguebringer.

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Q u o t e:


So, could you do something along the lines of...

Improved Scorch.
Increases spell crit by 5% on the target. In addition, after casting Scorch, you will gain +5% crit for 30 seconds.

Would that be viable?

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No, it wouldn't because it makes too much sense. All kidding aside, that would be perfect, but they would still have to change it to one application because we are going to have to take the glyph out.

Edit: Internetz ate the rest of the post.

can we have something like 1/2/3% hit for taking the talent now that another class can bring it as well? I know you changed the shaman 10% ap talent for this reason, and fire raid spec doesnt have access to 3% hit like other mage specs/most casters in general.

edit: fire only/doesn't stack with other hit talents would be fine.

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Q u o t e:


Well, sure. 10% all of the time > 5% some of the time. I don't foresee groups stacking mages with the Mirror Image glyph so they can keep it up 100% of the time like some kind of Bloodlust rotation, but we;ll see.

As I said in a related thread, it's possible the CoE debuff is too good as well. If you are choosing between player A and B for your tenth spot, we'd much rather you base that decision on who is the better player, not who brings the better buff.

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In all honesty, unless there is a huge difference in the player it's going to be the buff.

Example

1) Jim Bob boosts everyone's dps by 13% when he's there and he does 3000 dps
2) Sue boosts everyone's dps by 5% when she's there and does 3300 dps

Jim Bob will get the invite over Sue unless someone hates Jim Bob, or likes Sue - even though Sue is "technically" a better player because she does 110% of Jm Bob's DPS

The buffs brought to the raid absolutely overcome the relative gear and skill of players.

Additionally, other "utility" such as spammable mana regeneration, larger health pools, AoE (both damage and sustainability), threat dump quality, mobility, and ability to do high damage in the event a buff class dues (eg, boomkin dies, fire mage is impacted more than a shadow priest)- while doing very high damage all factor in to a very large degree.

This is especially true when you compare a Balance Druid to a Warlock, or an Elemental Shaman to a Mage.

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Q u o t e:


Well, sure. 10% all of the time > 5% some of the time. I don't foresee groups stacking mages with the Mirror Image glyph so they can keep it up 100% of the time like some kind of Bloodlust rotation, but we;ll see.

As I said in a related thread, it's possible the CoE debuff is too good as well. If you are choosing between player A and B for your tenth spot, we'd much rather you base that decision on who is the better player, not who brings the better buff.

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Unless the MI glyph is a minor one, no mage is going to take it anyway - and if they do, they're going to be the one mage in the guild that does, similar to the one mage that keeps up scorch, the one warlock that tosses up CoE, etc.

But, GC... that's the OP's point. Are you going to take the mage, with 5% crit? The warlock, with 5% crit and 10% damage? Or the moonkin, with 5% crit, 13% damage and 3% hit?

This is the system you're trying to stay away from, but with those options, it's not even a choice. Unless the mage is absolutely hands-down the best mage available or substantially outgears the moonkin, it's no contest.

"Bring the player, not the class" only works when the class buffs are balanced. Obviously, that's what you're trying to accomplish, but both mage damage and mage utility took a giant hit, here. If I wasn't a mage, I certainly wouldn't want a mage in my group.

Edited for visibility. Wall of text, etc.

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Q u o t e:
In all honesty, unless there is a huge difference in the player it's going to be the buff.

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Q u o t e:
As I said in a related thread, it's possible the CoE debuff is too good as well. If you are choosing between player A and B for your tenth spot, we'd much rather you base that decision on who is the better player, not who brings the better buff.

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So a 10-man raid leader asks, "Should I bring a mage?" and the group says, "He provides a mage table, but I have food from a battleground that I can share; a portal, but all our hearths are 30 minutes now; and a 5% crit debuff."

And the raid leader says, "That 5% crit debuff sounds pretty good. What about the destro warlock?" Group says, "Oh, he provides 13% magic damage, the same 5% crit without having to insert a DPS-loss spell into his rotation, and a summoning stone. He can also bring a lesser version of AI or fort just for kicks."

Think about it GC.

Sidenote: why would I use Glyph of Mirror Image unless it's a minor glyph? My images die immediately upon summoning except on Gluth and Patchwerk. On Gluth, they never actually attack Gluth and instead go after the zombies. Furthermore, because of this, Glyph of Mirror Image is a DPS loss when compared to Glyph of Living Bomb. And yet, you strip away 5% of our crit, and then tack it back on in the form of a glyph? Why, exactly? To taunt us or something?

"Hey, we're taking away 5% of your crit... you can have it back for a few seconds though if you glyph for it."

When I was inviting for a caster-stacked N10, my priorities went somewhat in this order:

Totems/Hit Aura/Heroism/Mana Tide
COE/EP/E&M
Misery/IFF
Imp Scorch/WC
Paladin Blessings

Honestly, I'm not sure I would have taken away the Paladin buffs to get 10% crit. All of these players are of similar gear level and skill, leaving me free to stack groups based on buffs. Like a few other people have said, I hope some sort of self-buff to gain back the 5% lost is planned.