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Q u o t e:


See... i could live with this... in fact I'd be delighted by it... because it makes gearing up a hell of alot easier... there is spirit EVERYWHERE... pieces without spirit are VERY few and far between.

I want taking pieces with spirit to not make me twitch with resentment cause of wasted itemization

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This is just a stupid mentality. Every single piece of caster gear has Int on it, more Int than Spirit. Getting an added benefit from Int would be much more beneficial to Mages, and more in line with RP as well, than Spirit. Let Spirit be wasted, who cares.

Again, just look at the Arcane talent Mind Mastery. All we need is for something like that to be baseline for all Mages. Its clearly not OP cause its already there, and it would allow us to scale better with gear.

Also, as I said, increasing our crit bonus from Int to compensate for the loss of Scorch/WC would help as well. Our crit bonus from Int should be doubled or tripled, then our crit would scale better with gear.

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Q u o t e:


This is just a stupid mentality. Every single piece of caster gear has Int on it, more Int than Spirit. Getting an added benefit from Int would be much more beneficial to Mages, and more in line with RP as well, than Spirit. Let Spirit be wasted, who cares.

Again, just look at the Arcane talent Mind Mastery. All we need is for something like that to be baseline for all Mages. Its clearly not OP cause its already there, and it would allow us to scale better with gear.

Also, as I said, increasing our crit bonus from Int to compensate for the loss of Scorch/WC would help as well. Our crit bonus from Int should be doubled or tripled, then our crit would scale better with gear.

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See I don't think it's stupid at all. Mages already get a decent amount of benefit in raids from Int.

Int = More crit. I know its not alot but it is SOMETHING. It affects dps directly however little

Int = more regen. Again not alot but it does affect the regen formula.

Int = bigger mana pool = better gains from replenishment. The less times I have to evocate during a fight the better my dps will be. Replenishment is a huge part of sustainability as the devs have intended. Int has a large impact on that.

Int = spellpower if you are arcane. Right there int can directly affect dps if you have the talents for it.


VS

Spirit = regen... which has no effect on dps at all unless I am oom.

I'd list something else... but there isnt anything



Int does plenty in my book.

Spirit however does not.

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Q u o t e:
I know this thread is supposed to be about Mages but, does anyone else notice how all the "extras" on Lifetap have made the 31 pt Affliction Talent "Darkpact" virtually useless?

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Little bit. I don't think any affliction specs use DP now.

Dark Pact now seems to be the pvp warlock's choice for mana so as to not lose health during a fight via tap.

It has a use... but I agree Life Tap completely overshadows it in pve and it could probably stand to get some kind of boost to make it better.

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Q u o t e:


See I don't think it's stupid at all. Mages already get a decent amount of benefit in raids from Int.

Int = More crit. I know its not alot but it is SOMETHING. It affects dps directly however little

Int = more regen. Again not alot but it does affect the regen formula.

Int = bigger mana pool = better gains from replenishment. The less times I have to evocate during a fight the better my dps will be. Replenishment is a huge part of sustainability as the devs have intended. Int has a large impact on that.

Int = spellpower if you are arcane. Right there int can directly affect dps if you have the talents for it.


VS

Spirit = regen... which has no effect on dps at all unless I am oom.

I'd list something else... but there isnt anything


Int does plenty in my book.

Spirit however does not.

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Sorry, but you just don't know what you are talking about.

Why are you looking at this from the persepctive of the stat?

Who cares about the stat, what is important is what the benefit to the character is. It doesn't matter if the benefit comes from Agi, Stam, or Str for that matter.

The fewer stats that you have to gear for the better. If you put a lot of value on Spirit then it just makes gearing harder, not easier.

You mentioned the SP increase from Int for Arcane, didn't you see that I said that this benefit should be baseline for all Mages or put it in tier 1 or tier 2 at least so others can grab it? That's the point, it ONLY affects Arcane.

The issue is that Locks get a SP increase from Stats, and Mages don't, thus Locks scale better with gear. They get it from Spirit, but it would be better for Mages to get it from Int, cause we have more Int and we already gear for Int.

If Mages got an SP benefit from Spirit it would hurt our gearing overall, and we wouldn't get as big a benefit from it, cause then we would have to to trade-offs of Spirit vs Int vs SP vs a Haste, Crit, etc.

It is an absolute fact that given the two options:

1) You Spell Power is boosted by 20% of your Int
2) Your Spell Power is boosted by 20% of your Spirit

That option 1 would be better for Mages. We would get more Spell Power from option 1 than we would ever get from option 2 no matter what.

Spirit is NEVER going to be good for Mages, NO MATTER WHAT.

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Q u o t e:


Sorry, but you just don't know what you are talking about.

Why are you looking at this from the persepctive of the stat?

Who cares about the stat, what is important is what the benefit to the character is. It doesn't matter if the benefit comes from Agi, Stam, or Str for that matter.

The fewer stats that you have to gear for the better. If you put a lot of value on Spirit then it just makes gearing harder, not easier.

You mentioned the SP increase from Int for Arcane, didn't you see that I said that this benefit should be baseline for all Mages or put it in tier 1 or tier 2 at least so others can grab it? That's the point, it ONLY affects Arcane.

The issue is that Locks get a SP increase from Stats, and Mages don't, thus Locks scale better with gear. They get it from Spirit, but it would be better for Mages to get it from Int, cause we have more Int and we already gear for Int.

If Mages got an SP benefit from Spirit it would hurt our gearing overall, and we wouldn't get as big a benefit from it, cause then we would have to to trade-offs of Spirit vs Int vs SP vs a Haste, Crit, etc.

It is an absolute fact that given the two options:

1) You Spell Power is boosted by 20% of your Int
2) Your Spell Power is boosted by 20% of your Spirit

That option 1 would be better for Mages. We would get more Spell Power from option 1 than we would ever get from option 2 no matter what.

Spirit is NEVER going to be good for Mages, NO MATTER WHAT.

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I know exactly what I am talking about. You just refuse to face the fact that we are getting spirit NO MATTER WHAT.

Once you accept that fact and stop living in this fantasy world that the devs are going to change it for you then you will understand why myself and many others want spirit to DO SOMETHING for us DPS wise

The idea isnt to buff mages. The devs dont want to do that.

But Spirit NEEDS to do something for us dps wise because it's forced down our throats on 90% of the gear that drops.

You would prefer all your eggs in one basket with int. I understand that. But the devs ain't gonna give us that. It would mean that the few pieces without spirit wasted itemization would become even MORE valuable to mages than they already are.

I've been a mage a long time and seen changes come and go. Trust me when I say there's little to no chance of us ever seeing every bit of our scaling come from a single stat (int). So if that is true (and I very much think it is) then we need to make the devs see that since spirit is going to dumped on us no matter if we want it or not... then it HAS to give us a dps benefit otherwise the more spirit we get on our gear the more itemization is WASTED and the more dps we LOSE because of it.

Wake up. Int is never going to be the end all be all stat for mages. You're going to get showered with spirit no matter how hard you try to avoid it. It's time to open your eyes and realize we need to get something from that stat that's raining down from the heavens on all our gear.

No, you don't get it.

Yes Spirit is going to be on the gear no matter what, SO WHAT?

The problem here is no Spirit, the problem is scaling from Stats.

I currently have 733 Int and 238 Spirit.

You currently have 1152 Int and 567 Spirit.

So lets go over this again.

You have two options:

1) Your Spell Power is increased by 20% of your total Int
2) Your Spell Power is boosted by 20% of your total Spirit

When one would you currently choose?

If you choose Spirit you are a fool. Clearly you get less benefit from Spirit.

But now lets say that they put in this change for Spirit anyway, so now "Spirit is useful to you".

What would this change for you in terms of gearing?

Well now if you wanted to take advantage of the Spirit it means you would have to trade off Int, Spell Power, Haste, and Crit for it. Your overall benefit from gearing for Spirit would be less than if you could just ignore Spirit and gear for Int.

You are better losing the Spirit stats and having them wasted than gearing for Spirit, EVER. THERE IS NO SITUATION EVER WHERE GEARING FOR SPIRIT WOULD EVER BE GOOD, NO MATTER WHAT.

What Mages need is SCALING FROM STATS.

The best stat to scale from is INT, it will ALWAYS be the best stat to scale from.

Edit: And BTW, 9 out of your 15 pieces of gear don't have ANY Spirit on them. For the math challenged, that is more than half your gear that has zero Spirit.

Edit: Oh, and I only have ONE piece of gear with Spirit on it.

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Q u o t e:
No, you don't get it.

Yes Spirit is going to be on the gear no matter what, SO WHAT?

The problem here is no Spirit, the problem is scaling from Stats.

I currently have 733 Int and 238 Spirit.

You currently have 1152 Int and 567 Spirit.

So lets go over this again.

You have two options:

1) Your Spell Power is increased by 20% of your total Int
2) Your Spell Power is boosted by 20% of your total Spirit

When one would you currently choose?

If you choose Spirit you are a fool. Clearly you get less benefit from Spirit.

But now lets say that they put in this change for Spirit anyway, so now "Spirit is useful to you".

What would this change for you in terms of gearing?

Well now if you wanted to take advantage of the Spirit it means you would have to trade off Int, Spell Power, Haste, and Crit for it. Your overall benefit from gearing for Spirit would be less than if you could just ignore Spirit and gear for Int.

You are better losing the Spirit stats and having them wasted than gearing for Spirit, EVER. THERE IS NO SITUATION EVER WHERE GEARING FOR SPIRIT WOULD EVER BE GOOD, NO MATTER WHAT.

What Mages need is SCALING FROM STATS.

The best stat to scale from is INT, it will ALWAYS be the best stat to scale from.

Edit: And BTW, 9 out of your 15 pieces of gear don't have ANY Spirit on them. For the math challenged, that is more than half your gear that has zero Spirit.

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I dont know where you are getting this whole 20% spellpower business from. The likely hood that we will see any such thing is next to nil

stop looking at it like that cause thats not what the devs are likely going to do for us.

Mages don't need buffs according to the devs (I am not saying i agree or disagree). What you are proposing is an outright buff which the devs have said they do not want right now.

First of all Mages CANNOT scale entirely from int. It would make us far too good and int would give us way more than it should.

Secondly... you admit that we cannot avoid spirit. But what you still fail to grasp is that spirit we cannot avoid is WASTED itemization. We get NOTHING from it. The idea of having spirit actually do SOMETHING for us dps-wise makes it so we don't get penalized so much for using pieces with spirit.

As for gearing for spirit never being good... you're right! THAT IS THE PROBLEM! The fact that spirit is available in spades and we get NOTHING from it is the issue at hand.

As for MY gear... people don't just hit 80 and bam get gear like I have. It took me since a few weeks after release till now of constant farming to get what i have. I had to fight tooth and nail for several of the pieces and spend much of my dkp with no alternatives if I wanted to do my best. And during the periods I had more spirit heavy gear cause the stuff without spirit didnt drop or I didnt have enough dkp to win it? Yea during that time my dps was penalized. I had to make the tough choice of passing on gear that had spirit on it or not winning it cause I bid conservatively so i didnt burn myself out of dkp for when the GOOD stuff dropped.

Comparing your gear and mine is silly. We are in entirely different gear classes. And you have crafted and pvp gear mixed in which isnt typically littered with spirit (but rather stam and resilience for the pvp gear and the devs show some kindness with crafted gear to have the bare necessities of functionality and little fluff like spirit unless its intended for healers)

The devs intentions according to GC is to make it so that those who have a lot of spirit on their gear due to RNG/availability aren't as penalized as those who avoid it successfully. For this to happen spirit has to affect our dps in some way. There is no debating that fact. Stop trying to cause you're wrong.

I am not going to say mage scaling is fine or not. I don't honestly know. I am not struggling to keep pace with my peers on live. I don't top meters every fight (I do sometimes though) but I don't do poorly either. I usually fight for tops spots with shadow priests, hunters, locks and rogues (depending on the fights) which is where the devs say they want us.

Are you saying you feel we have a scaling problem? If so thats an entirely different topic and you shouldnt be here spouting your "gimme 20% of my int as spellpower" nonsense. This is about making an unavoidable stat actually have some value so when we end up with it we arent penalized in dps because our itemization isnt helping us in any way.

Okay, well the argument that Int would be too powerful of a stat to scale from is a different argument and its a different discussion. You can legitimately make a case for that, and if so that's an acceptable argument.

The claim, however, that Spirit stats are "wasted" and that we should get a benefit from then so as not to "waste them" is not legitimate however.

If its the case that they want us to scale from Spirit BECAUSE Spirit is the weaker stat, then fine, but my argument is that since Int is the stronger stat its the better one to scale from.

However, if you take the argument that Spirit is the weaker stat, and thus we should use it to scale from BECAUSE its weaker, it also means that you can't give it any meaningful role either, otherwise you screw itemization.

Thus it will always be relegated to a marginal value, for things like regen, etc. where Mages would still NEVER itemize for Spirit, and any benefits from it would just be incidental.

You can't put Spirit in competition with Int or any other stat, otherwise you defeat the whole purpose, which means that any benefits from it wont' ever be significant, which means its a moot point anyway.

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Q u o t e:
Okay, well the argument that Int would be too powerful of a stat to scale from is a different argument and its a different discussion. You can legitimately make a case for that, and if so that's an acceptable argument.

The claim, however, that Spirit stats are "wasted" and that we should get a benefit from then so as not to "waste them" is not legitimate however.

If its the case that they want us to scale from Spirit BECAUSE Spirit is the weaker stat, then fine, but my argument is that since Int is the stronger stat its the better one to scale from.

However, if you take the argument that Spirit is the weaker stat, and thus we should use it to scale from BECAUSE its weaker, it also means that you can't give it any meaningful role either, otherwise you screw itemization.

Thus it will always be relegated to a marginal value, for things like regen, etc. where Mages would still NEVER itemize for Spirit, and any benefits from it would just be incidental.

You can't put Spirit in competition with Int or any other stat, otherwise you defeat the whole purpose, which means that any benefits from it wont' ever be significant, which means its a moot point anyway.

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I'll quote Ghostcrawler for you so you understand that "The claim, however, that Spirit stats are "wasted" and that we should get a benefit from then so as not to "waste them" is not legitimate however." is ENTIRELY THE POINT OF THIS TOPIC

GC: "The goal is to make it so that a mage who avoids all the gear with spirit does not have significantly higher dps than the mage with the (more common) gear with spirit."

here's a link too http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15657788662&pageNo=1&sid=1#2

Trust me when I say I really do know what I am talking about.

The only way to achieve what GC said is for spirit to give SOME kind of dps gain. It doesnt have to be a ton... just SOMETHING.

first


woo

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Q u o t e:
Differences among classes != hypocrisy.

As long as mages and warlocks do comparable damage, are about as powerful in PvP, scale about the same way, and one isn't a lot more desirable in a group, then the specifics of how they differ isn't inherently a problem.

Mage gear has a lot of Spirit on it that doesn't help them much at the moment. We want to improve that. We are not going to turn mages into a class that stacks Spirit at the expense of all else, and we're not going to let Spirit provide "free" dps to mages that elevates them above the average dps of warlocks -- unless they are far below warlocks now, which does not seem to be the case. If you think it *is* the case, please provide some data or math so we know where you're coming from.

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I don't think mages are looking for "free dps" GC.. at least not those of us who understand that you dont want to "buff" us.

The mages who understand this just want spirit to actually provide a dps benefit so that when we have to take pieces with spirit on it we arent penalized in dps compared to using pieces without spirit.

Of course spirit cant be something we stack above all else that would be silly

But even a talent in each mage tree (deep enough so you cant stack them) that gave 10% of our spirit score as a combat stat would make spirit have at least SOME value to us

My mage has a spirit score higher than most I think... giving a talent in each mage tree with a different combat related benefit from spirit that was SMALL but noticeable would be the best way to encourage mages to not cringe at spirit

Example:

Arcane: attach a "you get 10% of your spirit as haste rating" to one of the existing talents

Fire: attach a "you get 10% of your spirit as crit rating" to one of the existing talents

Frost: attach a "you get 10% of your spirit as spell power" to one of the existing talents

With my spirit score as arcane that would net me 56 haste rating... its a nice little boost but not overly potent

If I specced fire or frostfire I'd pick up 56 crit rating instead in the same gear... again not overly potent but nice. I wouldnt cringe as much at the thought of spirit being on my gear wasting itemization that could be better spent on more haste or crit or hit or spellpower.

If I specced frost it would be 56 spellpower... probably the best of the lot... and considering poor frost's pve presence is virtually nil this sort of benefit is probably warranted..

And considering pvp gear has no spirit on it NONE of these boosts would affect pvp in any real way which is absolutely perfect imo.

Make us not hate spirit. Make it have value to us beyond regen.

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Q u o t e:
Differences among classes != hypocrisy.

As long as mages and warlocks do comparable damage, are about as powerful in PvP, scale about the same way, and one isn't a lot more desirable in a group, then the specifics of how they differ isn't inherently a problem.

Mage gear has a lot of Spirit on it that doesn't help them much at the moment. We want to improve that. We are not going to turn mages into a class that stacks Spirit at the expense of all else, and we're not going to let Spirit provide "free" dps to mages that elevates them above the average dps of warlocks -- unless they are far below warlocks now, which does not seem to be the case. If you think it *is* the case, please provide some data or math so we know where you're coming from.

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how can we scale about the same when they get to benefit from every stat on the majority of gear and we don't?

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Q u o t e:
Differences among classes != hypocrisy.

As long as mages and warlocks do comparable damage, are about as powerful in PvP, scale about the same way, and one isn't a lot more desirable in a group, then the specifics of how they differ isn't inherently a problem.

Mage gear has a lot of Spirit on it that doesn't help them much at the moment. We want to improve that. We are not going to turn mages into a class that stacks Spirit at the expense of all else, and we're not going to let Spirit provide "free" dps to mages that elevates them above the average dps of warlocks -- unless they are far below warlocks now, which does not seem to be the case. If you think it *is* the case, please provide some data or math so we know where you're coming from.

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Gee that sounds exactly like moonkins.

How about taking into consideration that none of the leather gear you are designing for druids in 3.1 is even remotely comparable in terms of DPS potential to the cloth you are designing.

(Hint: spirit sucks for moonkins. I'm not going to trade 40+ hit/crit/haste for a measly 6-7 SP. I'm going to roll on cloth instead, which actually is good for DPS. My guild has DE'd much of the caster leather that has dropped in WotlK, because, frankly, its garbage that nobody will wear.)

Mages don't want spirit to be an end-all stat, we just don't want it to be wasted itemization.

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Q u o t e:


I'll quote Ghostcrawler for you so you understand that "The claim, however, that Spirit stats are "wasted" and that we should get a benefit from then so as not to "waste them" is not legitimate however." is ENTIRELY THE POINT OF THIS TOPIC

GC: "The goal is to make it so that a mage who avoids all the gear with spirit does not have significantly higher dps than the mage with the (more common) gear with spirit."

here's a link too http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15657788662&pageNo=1&sid=1#2

Trust me when I say I really do know what I am talking about.

The only way to achieve what GC said is for spirit to give SOME kind of dps gain. It doesnt have to be a ton... just SOMETHING.

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Then I'll just have to say that GC's goal is a stupid one. Why shouldn't a player be rewarded for good gearing? That's retarded.

Furthermore, if Spirit has benefits to DPS it WILL screw gearing. It will make gearing harder not easier. It will make gearing worse, not better. It will make it easier to have more Spell Power with crappy gear, and harder to put together an optimal set.

So basically giving more spell power to whatever via Spirt will make bad Mages better and good mages worse. GG again GC... GG Again, way to continue screwing the class...

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Q u o t e:
how can we scale about the same when they get to benefit from every stat on the majority of gear and we don't?

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i think his answer will be that we arent designed to and the other classes are.

the problem is we should be designed to do just that... especially since when the game first came out mages have had spirit dumped all over them. Spirit actually being useful to locks is something new that came with 3.0. The fact that mages who have always had spirit itemized into their gear get the least use from it is rather funny. (though i doubt many of us are laughing)

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Q u o t e:


Gee that sounds exactly like moonkins.

How about taking into consideration that none of the leather gear you are designing for druids in 3.1 is even remotely comparable in terms of DPS potential to the cloth you are designing.

(Hint: spirit sucks for moonkins. I'm not going to trade 40+ hit/crit/haste for a measly 6-7 SP. I'm going to roll on cloth instead, which actually is good for DPS. My guild has DE'd much of the caster leather that has dropped in WotlK, because, frankly, its garbage that nobody will wear.)

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I can totally understand where you are coming from... but think of it from our perspective... as a moonkin if you HAVE to have spirit (like say some of your tier pieces) you still get SOMETHING from that spirit even if it is just 6-7 spellpower

We get NOTHING from it... nadda... zip... zilch... and thats what we as mages want to change.

if I got even the tiny bit of spellpower you get from spirit (or any combat related rating for that matter) I would not resent the spirit on my gear as much... I wouldnt love it to bits... but I'd at least know in my mind that the spirit was giving me some dps benefit however small.