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Q u o t e:


I run at 42k with BiS except my weapon.. Anyhting over that and either the bear has JC/LW, they are stacking stam over agility or they are wearing some of the polar set. Also a bear stacking all agility does'nt even break 40k hps with BiS.

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Just going to throw this out there but you have Herbalism and Alchemy.

You could be Mining/JC and gain 50 stam from mining, 63 stam from a trinket ( 36 stam from slots minimum 65 max + 9 from socket bonus)

and the 3 Prismatic Gems. so between 51 and 123 Stam depending on if you use Yellow Sockets for +41 stam.

You could be looking at minimum:

209 extra stam before modifiers or

257 stam at max.

Modified for Raids.

209*1.25*1.20*1.1 = 345 Stam minimum

257*1.25*1.2*1.1 = 424 Stam max.

You run at 42K not stam stacking and not even with BIS everything. I armoried your guild and saw a Warrior in your guild who is like you, BIS everything. He is stam stacking and not avoid stacking. He is Mining/JC and he still only have about 32K Unbuffed. Raid buffed he will have roughly 40K hp.

2K Less than you. If you Min/Maxed as well you'd be almost fully 7K Hp ahead of what appears to be the next best tank in your guild.

You logged out in DPS gear it seems, so this is all assuming your gear is BIS.

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Q u o t e:


I have best in slot gear and I am at 41k raid buffed. Where do you see these 43k bears? In their polarlol gear?

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I have 47k buffed in the gear im wearing now...

I think part of what is going on is Blizzard is really unsure of what to do with feral druids. Hence the rather significant changes every single patch. They aren't quite sure where to go, so they are kinda making it up each step of the way.

I noticed this during beta, and it was one of the reasons I decided to stop tanking with my druid. Hopefully they'll figure it out one of these days.

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Q u o t e:
Maybe 30k HP for a DK tank is a "little" low, but I do have mostly BiS and I'm sitting at just over 32k unbuffed hp in frost presence. So the numbers aren't really that low. 28,750 armor, unbuffed.

High avoidance.

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Pretty much the 2 big reasons im not up to that point in terms of stats.

No professions, im just pure lazy when it comes to those. Leveling those would be a significant boost to my HP (mining +50 stam and JC with the trinket / extra gems)

Not fully BiS yet, still working on like 3 pieces of gear (chest, belt, helm)

When you armory this guy, click on guild then sort by rank. Rank 3 is "Army of Moo", aka: me

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Q u o t e:
Not trying to be an ass or anything, but don't we have this exact thread every time something about a bear is changed, no matter what exactly was changed?

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QFT.

Not that (as a pally) I have much room to talk, but WOW you guys whine alot. Wait and see for the love of god! Here's the druid community:

"OMFG! WEZ NURFD! Wut?! Who carez if teh new patch isnt dun! I shud freak out NOW to save tiem latur! FREEK OUTTTTTT!!! TEH SKYZ IZ FALLINGGGG!!!1!"

Calm the @#!@ down druids, jesus. Wait till the PTR is done then freak out.

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Q u o t e:


QFT.

Not that (as a pally) I have much room to talk, but WOW you guys whine alot. Wait and see for the love of god! Here's the druid community:

"OMFG! WEZ NURFD! Wut?! Who carez if teh new patch isnt dun! I shud freak out NOW to save tiem latur! FREEK OUTTTTTT!!! TEH SKYZ IZ FALLINGGGG!!!1!"

Calm the @#!@ down druids, jesus. Wait till the PTR is done then freak out.

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Druids have consistently gotten the worst treatment as tanks, and most definitely the least thought put into them as far as tanking goes. They then get their strong suits nerfed and the most sensible sort of fixes for their weak points ignored. 95% of the time, this is how things go for them. So cut them some slack.

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Q u o t e:
Druids have consistently gotten the worst treatment as tanks, and most definitely the least thought put into them as far as tanking goes. They then get their strong suits nerfed and the most sensible sort of fixes for their weak points ignored. 95% of the time, this is how things go for them. So cut them some slack.

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As someone that tried to get started as a Druid tank in MC before BWL released, and as someone who lived through the nut-kicking of 2.1, I do feel for Druids. GC keeps saying we can't referance the past when posting on these forums, but it really seems like history repeating itself.

Hey there rerolladin, you obviously haven't been playing pally very long or you would remember that pallies have had it the exact same way for just as long. (in before "BUT UR A BE!" I was a dwarf pally back when strat was a raid, and was happy to be able to switch) That is not to say that anyone has the right to so much b1tching...yet. Yet. YET.

How about, instead of flipping your sh1t, you post constructive reason why it won't work, then wait. and. see.

P.S. Please let it be known that I am exclusively addressing people who post threads with titles such as

"Bears are dead."

"Just delete your bear tank."

"Beginning of the end for Feral."

"Who am I?"

To name a couple. To those posting intelligent threads: Fight on!

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Q u o t e:

As someone that tried to get started as a Druid tank in MC before BWL released, and as someone who lived through the nut-kicking of 2.1, I do feel for Druids. GC keeps saying we can't referance the past when posting on these forums, but it really seems like history repeating itself.

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Well, they aren't purposefully trying to nerf you so you are worse than warriors. However they don't want to give you more defensive stats and they don't want to give you more AoE abilities (or change how swipe works much), and they want you to use rogue leather (rather than caster leather which would have more stats to play with). Then lo and behold, they have to make you scale oddly with so few stats, and when a new content patch comes out, OMG, that past scaling is no good with this new gear (Because you scale a lot more with those few stats), so now they have to monkey with it all again. Of course your avoidance is crap because most of your dodge is fixed is talents, and beyond that you don't scale better than other tanks per item point (in dodge or agility). They'll probably monkey around with that too. I am sure they'll give you a fixed bump if they do anything, which means when the next content patch rolls around they'll have to change things again. (Of course, the net result of this is that newly 80 druids after 3.1 might have a much harder time doing Naxx and the like because now druid talents are tuned for Ulduar).

Frankly, it's madness, and I don't see how any of the devs can think they are making any significant progress in ensuring a stable feral tanking druid in the long term. Every content patch is going to cause a lot of retuning for ferals the way things are going. So, like I said before, I don't think they really have any idea what they should do or are doing for feral druids. Heck, they don't even seem realize this whole mess they've gotten themselves in is a long-term problem (look at what classes they felt needed the most work in 3.1).

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Q u o t e:


Well, they aren't purposefully trying to nerf you so you are worse than warriors. However they don't want to give you more defensive stats and they don't want to give you more AoE abilities (or change how swipe works much), and they want you to use rogue leather (rather than caster leather which would have more stats to play with). Then lo and behold, they have to make you scale oddly with so few stats, and when a new content patch comes out, OMG, that past scaling is no good with this new gear (Because you scale a lot more with those few stats), so now they have to monkey with it all again. Of course your avoidance is crap because most of your dodge is fixed is talents, and beyond that you don't scale better than other tanks per item point (in dodge or agility). They'll probably monkey around with that too. I am sure they'll give you a fixed bump if they do anything, which means when the next content patch rolls around they'll have to change things again. (Of course, the net result of this is that newly 80 druids after 3.1 might have a much harder time doing Naxx and the like because now druid talents are tuned for Ulduar).

Frankly, it's madness, and I don't see how any of the devs can think they are making any significant progress in ensuring a stable feral tanking druid in the long term. Every content patch is going to cause a lot of retuning for ferals the way things are going. So, like I said before, I don't think they really have any idea what they should do or are doing for feral druids. Heck, they don't even seem realize this whole mess they've gotten themselves in is a long-term problem (look at what classes they felt needed the most work in 3.1).

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Most smart feral tanks realize that we needed SOMETHING like SD that scales with gear. Losing that much armor in one patch is a shock, but it's better for us in the long term, hopefully. Also not everyone, including myself, likes the mechanics of how SD procs, but we'll see how it goes.

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Q u o t e:
Hey there rerolladin, you obviously haven't been playing pally very long or you would remember that pallies have had it the exact same way for just as long. (in before "BUT UR A BE!" I was a dwarf pally back when strat was a raid, and was happy to be able to switch) That is not to say that anyone has the right to so much b1tching...yet. Yet. YET.

How about, instead of flipping your sh1t, you post constructive reason why it won't work, then wait. and. see.

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I never said pallies were always in a good spot. I just said they were generally in a better spot than druids. They are a lot more like warriors than druids are, so the tuning has a ton of similarities. The fact that pre-3.0 pallies were tuned to be inferior to warriors is a design problem that is now fixed (but they were tuned better to those specification than druids were). That's as tanks, of course. 3.0 made sure pallies got some much needed buffs and fixes for better play, naturally, which had been a long time coming certainly. Druids however are now treated as 4 separate classes, each one needing gear that is treated differently (heck, they couldn't even make the caster gear more uniform by letting HoTs crit) -- there's largely very little synergy between specs and druids pay a high cost to use off-spec abilities (including having many, many talents that are very powerful down in their trees making sure that off-spec spells are fairly crappy relative to other hybrids, imho). Sure, Holy pallies have specialized gear, but Prot and Ret are now in line with other plate. Bear tanks and rogue leather is overall a poor fit, and hence there's a ton of problems with it.

Anyhow, yeah, Pallies had major problems. Bears have just generally had worse problems from the beginning of the game (let's not even talk about the launch situation).

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Q u o t e:


Oh no the sky is falling..the bears are dead.

Where have i heard that before? Oh yea, right before WotLK came out.

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Oh. I thought it was that bears were falling out of the sky and dieing because they weren't hitting feral charge fast enough.

I think one of the frustrating things though is that currently a bunch of my friends are leveling ferals. They all keep asking me for advice and when I go to think about gearing it's sort-of a case of "Oh god, what patch is it right now again?" I just don't know what to tell them other than

"agi is good and so is armour but not on rings and such as much as it used to be because that no longer gets multiplied you want to try to reach the armour cap but next patch they're nerfing our armour and that's unlikely to happen but they're giving us this SD thing that scales off of ap and crit instead but we don't know how that works yet so we don't know if it'll really be worth going for those stats: we prolly get enough from our gear as it is but we don't know for sure yet and they're also nerfing our stamina so while normally I just kinda let stamina happen on my gear and favour agi and dodge we might actually have to start putting the odd stam gem on but prolly not and I really don't know anymore."

In short: we've gone through so many drastic changes since Wrath began that I just don't know what I'm supposed to be gearing for anymore. What do you wanna bet that next round we'll start scaling off of sp leather just cause?

Sigh I don't know why I am feeding Naarikun...but I can't help it.

Once again you have NO idea what you are talking about adn you're making that more obvious every time you post.

Pre-BC, if you were a pally you rolled Holy or rolled Warrior. In TBC Pallies and Druids were in the same boat capable of tanking but warriors were vastly superior. Now in wotlk, both are capable tanks and on par with all the other tanks. In patch 3.1....well there's no point in talking about that cause IT'S NOT DONE. I don't know whats so hard for you to understand, rerolladin.

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Q u o t e:
I cannot believe they are now nerfing our stamina. In beta, Blizzard said that was our thing, our niche. Well, what niche is left? DKs are great AoE and caster tanks, Paladins still rock the threat and AoE world, warriors are pretty darn good single target tanks with respectible AoE abilities. Druids are good at what, in light of this? Getting their asses kicked into next week perhaps.

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Read the EULA. I believe it says something along the lines of "Play styles subject to change."

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Q u o t e:
With a decent set of gear, well balanced across armor, dodge, stamina and expertise, we were not significantly higher in health than anyone else. With the HotW nerf, we now have clearly inferior stamina on top of the poor avoidance, the SotF change ensures that we have inferior physical mitigation (Blizzard needs to show us SD so they can actually prove otherwise) and we already have pretty poor spell mitigation and provably retarded (yes, retarded) AoE tanking abilities.

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Patch 3.1 is months away. Ulduar tuning is taking place. New talents and abilities are being shifted. You're being overly pessimistic about the SotF and SD changes. Give it time and further fine tuning.

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Q u o t e:
We have nothing to work with. Nothing at all. Why make this change prior to seeing Savage Defense numbers? How many nerfs would Blizzard like to throw around without anything to compensate? Even SDs 'trigger' mechanic means that SD is not as good as block, not even close. But hey, when Blizzard puts SD on the PTR for testing, maybe someone can show otherwise. Until then, we're just getting beaten back into a resto mould. Oh wait, there's that Lifebloom thing...

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Like I said, "Give it time." Blizzard still has plenty of time to fine tune. They may have already performed limited internal testing that may have given creedence towards implementing the changes.

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Q u o t e:
It seems Blizzard has looked at our health pools without consulting our damage-taken-per-second. I wonder if Ghostcrawler is even aware of how poor quality our overpowered health is? A decent boss can tear through that health pool quicker than any other tank's health pool. We *need* it to survive.

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I do believe Blizzard knows how much bosses can tear through druid HP bars. Druids do, in fact, act pretty much like a mana sponge in extended fights simply because current druid tanking mechanics have them utilizing high HP to live through hard hits. Healer mana not being an issue, currently, further dooms the current path that druid are undertaking. Unlike warriors, paladins, and deathknights who have talents and abilities to mitigate more damage (than a druid), druids compensate by having high HP. With changes to mana regen coming, and the possibility of healers going OOM during boss encounters, druids could become a liability in tanking simply because they'll require more healing (versus the plate-wearing tanks) if the current trend persists.

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Q u o t e:
So are we good at now? Am I angry and a little bit emo? Hell yeah. I've put a lot of time and effort into a character to play the role of a main tank. Clearly, this change prevents that. No numbers anywhere can now show we are on an equal playing field with the others.

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Who knows? Maybe Blizzard will do a good job at balancing out the reduced HP (of tanking druids) with the increased mitigation/armor capabilities. It's far too early to tell, but it's clear that Blizzard wants druid HP to not become an advantage (above all other tanks) and a liability.

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Q u o t e:


You need more agility.

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You've got 2.5% more dodge then me... and almost 5k less hp.

You need more stam.

Fully buffed ive got 55.32% avoidance (67.61 pre DR)
You've got 57.11 (71.36 preDR)

So that gap is lowered to <2% fully buffed thanks to DR.

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Q u o t e:

I can get more stam from my trinkets and other gear when needed. Raid buffs scale stamina more than avoidance, hints in a raid situation I become a more well balanced tank. Unbuffed, my Stam trinkets are a better choice. You sir, need more agility.

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Your right, stam does scale better, it doesn't get hit by DR, and i dont have avoidance trinkets in my bags at all... The gap lessens even further to .5 when i put on a valor medal...

In a raid situation im better geared to take the beastly hit when i need to on progression content.

You sir, need more stam.