Well this thread started in a complete horrible manner where the major topic of discussion was not the change but how many fallacies people could come up with, all the while trolls bit each other and mean names were spoken to certain warriors and communities because obviously they brought it on.

However the last few pages are quite better. Personally I think 10 percent is too much of a nerf, and I hope that Blizzard reduces it. That is not to say that there were some problems with Druid HP, and that Xav's post has some merit (there were problems with it of course but the Druids I think in that thread defended themselves well)

On a completely different note, Druid QQ vs Warrior QQ was getting to extremely high levels in this thread, where certain posters were like "Xav shouldn't be allowed to post" and Xav did troll some of you druids. The QQ against Tankspot is stupid as well, blaming warriors for something the developers already had their mind on isn't the smartest way to go. If I could give a humble suggestion from a warrior who has never finished Nax (Yes I'm bad and casual oh noes) I would love to see a druid starting Tanking Topics No. 4 with clear arguments and intelligent discussion.

Remember in BC

Warriors QQ
Blue Post: Druids are fine L2P
Warriors QQ
Blue: MASSIVE DRUID NERFS

Of course they came up with scaling as the reason why. I guess looking at gear in the beta was simply to complicated. Otherwise they might have noticed such scaling issues.

WotLK Beta

Blue: Yes druids had some scaling issues in BC. But WotLK will be better. (carrot on stick)

Warriors: QQ Sarth 3D
Blue: Druids have an early lead on this fight
Warrrios: QQ Sarth 3D
Blue: we want to balance Tanks
Warriors: QQ Sarth 3D
Blue: Druid bubble will help druid itemization
Warriors: QQ Sarth 3D
PTR: Druid Nerfs


I'm sure they'll come up with reasons. I'm curious if at the end of this expansion druids will be in the same shape as at the end of BC.

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Q u o t e:
hope they at least buff cat dps so its viable in high end raiding, so I have somewhere to go.

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I've been building my balance set :(

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Q u o t e:
Warrior QQ wins again.


http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=8136495630

Druids have now lost ~6000 armor and ~2000+ hp on PTR, and we don't yet have Savage Defense implemented to test with. Thanks for that.

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you forgot to mention that warriors last stand is now a three minute cooldown as well. And whats our survival instinct at? 5 minutes.. well fits into blizzards idea that bears should be shiitty versions of every other class.

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Q u o t e:



you forgot to mention that warriors last stand is now a three minute cooldown as well. And whats our survival instinct at? 5 minutes.. well fits into blizzards idea that bears should be shiitty versions of every other class.

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You're a hybrid healer//tank/melee dps/ranged dps. You should be a **#!ty version of every other class because you do whatever role you want with a simple change of your spec.

A warrior can either tank or melee dps. Our pvp is worthless unless tank spec, and our pve dps is getting nerfed again. Our tanking got buffed a bit, and if we rework our spec and glyphs, it has been buffed significantly. Well, that's about all we're good for right now, so when you are absolutely pigeonholed in to one role get back to us.

I suppose I could farm a bunch of frostweave and run around the raid bandaging people. Yay, I'm a healer now, too!

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Q u o t e:


You're a hybrid healer//tank/melee dps/ranged dps. You should be a **#!ty version of every other class because you do whatever role you want with a simple change of your spec.

A warrior can either tank or melee dps. Our pvp is worthless unless tank spec, and our pve dps is getting nerfed again. Our tanking got buffed a bit, and if we rework our spec and glyphs, it has been buffed significantly. Well, that's about all we're good for right now, so when you are absolutely pigeonholed in to one role get back to us.

I suppose I could farm a bunch of frostweave and run around the raid bandaging people. Yay, I'm a healer now, too!

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ok, so then why arent paladin tanks getting nerfed to !%@*? they are obviously the best tanks in the game right now.

Actually the highlight of this thread is Xav showed what kind of person he really is. I. and probably many others, suspected as much but was holding off judgement since there were a couple people that respected him and he usually confined his posts to numbers or basic arguments, even if they were completely unsound. He has finally shown his true colors though.

I think if blizzard is gonna overkill HOTW, then at least buff IMP motw. 2-4% increased stats would be a comfprtable compromise but still a big nerf to bear stamina. it would increase our crit a little and our dodge a little bit which fits in with the new savage defense. It would in term let us use gems for stamina instead of stacking full agility.

Druid tanks were known for two things:

1. High Stamina
2. High Dodge

Only one more left to nerf! Please send us back to pigeon holed resto fodder like Pre-BC!

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Q u o t e:
In order to keep our goal of having all 4 tank classes capable of handling Ulduar, we need to get tank health pools a little closer together.

While I won't hide that this is a nerf for bears, we also don't want to get to the point of having a "mana sponge" tank, now that we are making mana more of an issue for healers.

If druids slip behind as a result of lack of mitigation, avoidance or cooldowns, we will buff them.

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Do you plan to compensate for this in any way?

Perhaps by 1: reducing HotW to 3 points or 2: giving us more avoidance?

The tank health pools are only out of whack when a druid gems straight stamina (if you gem all agility, you have nearly the same stats as a warrior/paladin, but with still reduced avoidance).

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Q u o t e:
In order to keep our goal of having all 4 tank classes capable of handling Ulduar, we need to get tank health pools a little closer together.

While I won't hide that this is a nerf for bears, we also don't want to get to the point of having a "mana sponge" tank, now that we are making mana more of an issue for healers.

If druids slip behind as a result of lack of mitigation, avoidance or cooldowns, we will buff them.

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Well obviously 10% is a huge nerf. thats alover 4000 HP.... and you arent making it up to us in anyway? you already nerfed our damage and armor. If you are trying to "balance" the stamina, then give us a buff somewhere else. possibly through savage defense giving 30-40% of AP for hit instead or something. But just going around nerfing druids stamina for the sake of testing out ulduar just isnt a good enough reason. Bears were not OP before and didnt deserve this masive nerf. and while your here GC, can you comment on why warriors got last stand reduced to 3 minutes while our survival instincs is still at 5 minute cooldown?

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Q u o t e:
In order to keep our goal of having all 4 tank classes capable of handling Ulduar, we need to get tank health pools a little closer together.

While I won't hide that this is a nerf for bears, we also don't want to get to the point of having a "mana sponge" tank, now that we are making mana more of an issue for healers.

If druids slip behind as a result of lack of mitigation, avoidance or cooldowns, we will buff them.

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Sounds like its guaranteed for you to buff us, if you nerfed our mitigation, hp, and still have less avoidance than all the other tanks.

HP was the only thing different between us and other tanks that have more CDs then us and have more avoidance than us.

On top of that, you also nerfed our damage dealt, resulting in a nerf in our threat.

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Q u o t e:
In order to keep our goal of having all 4 tank classes capable of handling Ulduar, we need to get tank health pools a little closer together.

While I won't hide that this is a nerf for bears, we also don't want to get to the point of having a "mana sponge" tank, now that we are making mana more of an issue for healers.

If druids slip behind as a result of lack of mitigation, avoidance or cooldowns, we will buff them.

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I think what Druids are concerned about at this stage is GC, that you've halved the armor boost from SotF, we don't yet have any solid numbers to play around with for Savage Defense (because it hasn't yet been implemented) and on top of it all we are still a good ~5-15% (depending on who you ask) behind in pure avoidance (i.e. not counting block) relative to Warriors/Paladins. Throw us a bone here =/

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Q u o t e:
In order to keep our goal of having all 4 tank classes capable of handling Ulduar, we need to get tank health pools a little closer together.

While I won't hide that this is a nerf for bears, we also don't want to get to the point of having a "mana sponge" tank, now that we are making mana more of an issue for healers.

If druids slip behind as a result of lack of mitigation, avoidance or cooldowns, we will buff them.

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If?????

Just compare druid's cooldowns to warrior cooldowns.

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Q u o t e:
In order to keep our goal of having all 4 tank classes capable of handling Ulduar, we need to get tank health pools a little closer together.

While I won't hide that this is a nerf for bears, we also don't want to get to the point of having a "mana sponge" tank, now that we are making mana more of an issue for healers.

If druids slip behind as a result of lack of mitigation, avoidance or cooldowns, we will buff them.

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how about due to horrible aoe threat mechanics?

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Q u o t e:
In order to keep our goal of having all 4 tank classes capable of handling Ulduar, we need to get tank health pools a little closer together.

While I won't hide that this is a nerf for bears, we also don't want to get to the point of having a "mana sponge" tank, now that we are making mana more of an issue for healers.

If druids slip behind as a result of lack of mitigation, avoidance or cooldowns, we will buff them.

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While SD works averaging out damage over a prolonged period of time it is also more prone to spikes. We are already behind in avoidance, and to make up for it our health pools are not nearly as exaggerated as many lead you to believe. So, more of our budget is now going to be stamina to make up lost ground and cover the new spikes we will see. As a result our avoidance is going to continue to be subpar. This is why changing any two variables in one period of testing is absurd.

1) Keep the stamina. Test the damage with SD with real parses.
2) Adjust stamina modifier accordingly.

I'm sure some internal testing has been done. Players will always by the nature of pure volume be a far better barometer to evaluate changes.

I'm not even sure you can't pull it off but itemization better be damn good, and by this I mean you are very likely going to have to start considering some tank centric itemization and move back away from the homogenization of gear in place. I don't mind where I am at, but this is a sad truth.

Finally, put a proper idol in place on a heroic badge vendor.

I view this as Blizzards inability to balance other tanks relative to Bears. Their answer, rather than buffing other tank's health which they stated they do not want to do, is to nerf bear health.

Very disappointed.