GC, you should bear in mind that the limited area relative to consecrate would make swipe harder to use even if it applied a bleed DOT on those it struck. Even with the targeting requirement removed it still covers a lot less ground when used than any other AoE ability. I'd think the simple fact that it is smaller makes it harder to use. For purposes of comparison, as a Pally tank, when I have a horde of guys incoming, I typically put my consecrate out in front then back up, so they have to run through the whole thing to get to me, this makes it have a pretty massive area. After I get them the first time, I then use my consecrate normally, of course. Warriors can similarly grab a mass of guys even if some run behind them* and DK's can use their ability similar to how a Paladin uses his.

*Speaking of running behind, and 95% off topic, are you guys ever going to deal with how mobs "overstep" and go through the tank when the tank makes just a small adjustment in position. (Just thought I'd mention this).

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Q u o t e:


This is true.

The benefit of Thunderclap is it does a lot of threat in one application. The downside is that if the warrior needs AE threat while it's on cooldown, he needs to use another ability (Shockwave if talented, or perhaps Challenging Shout.)

Consecrate and DnD have their downsides too. They tick, which is nice from a hands off approach. But it's also really easy for a moving add to make it all the way through the pool without getting a tick on them.

We were okay with Swipe being a little harder to use, since when it was used well it was just as effective as other AEs. But we now wonder if it has gone too far from a test of skill to a liability that makes people not want to group with druid tanks. Nobody wants to hear "Oh, just let the paladin grab the adds. It will be easier." It was humiliating in Karazhan for the Holy paladin to tank the ghosts that the warrior or druid couldn't hold down. (No disrepect to the pallies.)

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I would like to say that as a warrior, I am perfectly fine with my AoE abilities being cooldown related. Very rarely does it cause any deaths... issues here and there sure, but those are minor... and that is what our single target / AoE taunts are for. Not to mention that sometimes in a clinch, our Demo shout can at least temporarily divert a fresh pack of mobs from running straight to a random player.


Being forced to spam one key over and over again until the end of time because you have no choice otherwise though... blech. That is definitely something that, in my eyes, falls under the whole "quality of life" category :)


My opinion? Move Swipe to being target capped again, much like Cleave (unless there is another off-cooldown ability druids already have that functions like that), and just find a new ability to create that fulfills the role of a druid thunderclap/consecrate. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it should probably be some sort of like "Intimidating Roar" thing... so it isn't actually damage being dished out... but massive chunks of threat much akin to TC/Consecrate. That way you can also have it be 360degrees without it being something that would just be friggin hilarious to see a bear do.


If the AoE-chunk-threat-ability was supposed to deal damage that is fine as well... I was just thinking of something a bear could do "realistically" to hold aggro on groups of mobs that were surrounding him completely.



I would think it awesome though if there was a 360degree swipe animation. Come on.... give us twirly bears. They have had the same skin since level 10, they deserve at least to be able to twirl. You know you want to :)

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Q u o t e:
But it's also really easy for a moving add to make it all the way through the pool without getting a tick on them.

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Consecrate ticks every second, GC. At least according to wowhead it does, and that lines up with my recollections of my paladin alt.

In practice, I find it very rare that it doesn't catch passer-by's. If it doesn't either someone led the mob around the consecrate, or has a head start on threat for some reason.

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Q u o t e:


This is true.

The benefit of Thunderclap is it does a lot of threat in one application. The downside is that if the warrior needs AE threat while it's on cooldown, he needs to use another ability (Shockwave if talented, or perhaps Challenging Shout.)

Consecrate and DnD have their downsides too. They tick, which is nice from a hands off approach. But it's also really easy for a moving add to make it all the way through the pool without getting a tick on them.

We were okay with Swipe being a little harder to use, since when it was used well it was just as effective as other AEs. But we now wonder if it has gone too far from a test of skill to a liability that makes people not want to group with druid tanks. Nobody wants to hear "Oh, just let the paladin grab the adds. It will be easier." It was humiliating in Karazhan for the Holy paladin to tank the ghosts that the warrior or druid couldn't hold down. (No disrepect to the pallies.)

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You do realize you forgot to also account for the reactive damage attacks that actually cause threat unlike what druids have.

You "balanced" druids and DKs verse one part of sarth 3d but completely ignored the advantages warriors and paladins have on the adds.

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Q u o t e:



You "balanced" druids and DKs verse one part of sarth 3d but completely ignored the advantages warriors and paladins have on the adds.

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I think it is fair to say that this has no place in this thread, as it has been stated repeatedly that that is not why druids/DK's got nerfed.


That being said... I'm fairly certain the devs are in this thread looking for suggestions, not snide comments.

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Q u o t e:
It was humiliating in Karazhan for the Holy paladin to tank the ghosts that the warrior or druid couldn't hold down. (No disrepect to the pallies.)

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Brings back memories of bear runs with a healadin tanking the birds in the gauntlet.

My two cents on the issue: I know you want equality + disparity in some kind of balance so that each tank has its specialty and yet every tank can at least ~manage~ to do every tanking task (in this case, aoe). But I think the thing to keep in mind is making druid aoe tanking possible and not tricky but not necessarily making them as good or better than, say, a tankadin.

I'm all for equalizing tanking proficiencies to an extent, but I've come to terms with the fact that my paladin will never be as good of a "blocker" as a warrior for instance. I just enjoy the fact that I can aoe tank better than him. ;) [Note: the point is I can aoe tank better, not that I can aoe tank and he can't]

---------------------------------------
Those who can't tank, dps.

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Q u o t e:


This is true.

The benefit of Thunderclap is it does a lot of threat in one application. The downside is that if the warrior needs AE threat while it's on cooldown, he needs to use another ability (Shockwave if talented, or perhaps Challenging Shout.)

Consecrate and DnD have their downsides too. They tick, which is nice from a hands off approach. But it's also really easy for a moving add to make it all the way through the pool without getting a tick on them.

We were okay with Swipe being a little harder to use, since when it was used well it was just as effective as other AEs. But we now wonder if it has gone too far from a test of skill to a liability that makes people not want to group with druid tanks. Nobody wants to hear "Oh, just let the paladin grab the adds. It will be easier." It was humiliating in Karazhan for the Holy paladin to tank the ghosts that the warrior or druid couldn't hold down. (No disrepect to the pallies.)

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Just to highlight a minor issue here: You have referenced 2 discrete issues: Warriors having an issue if their cooldown on their AoE threat generator is still counting, and on the other hand DnD being limited not by this but by being locked in place like Consecrate.

It's worth mentioning that DnD is restricted by BOTH of these listed issues: It has a set area but also a long cooldown. This can be remedied by spending 8 points into Unholy (which is a net cost of 3 points in a tree that you may not want to spec into since most tanks will take 5 points minimum in Unholy) but even so retains a cooldown of 5 seconds. The other issue is it is expensive in that it costs 3 runes which in most DK rotations will not be available at the same time unless it is carefully planned, which in the situation of needing it outside it's cooldown period is clearly not the situation we're talking about (aka we're talking about emergency AoE threat).

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Q u o t e:


I think it is fair to say that this has no place in this thread, as it has been stated repeatedly that that is not why druids/DK's got nerfed.


That being said... I'm fairly certain the devs are in this thread looking for suggestions, not snide comments.

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That fight showed what was wrong, there wasnt anything else in the game that was hard enough

DKs could cooldown cheese the fight
Druids could wear crappy FR gear but still get enough HP to survive
Warriors and paladins blew both (other than unholy) out of the water for add tanking due to aoe threat and block


Its the reactive damage plus the aoe skills that warriors and paladins that leave druids in the dust for aoe threat. Judging from just how god awfully they did on testing swipe threat initially its a pretty safe assumption that they are not accounting for reactive threat in their comparisons.

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Q u o t e:

"Oh, just let the paladin grab the adds. It will be easier." It was humiliating in Karazhan for the Holy paladin to tank the ghosts that the warrior or druid couldn't hold down. (No disrepect to the pallies.)

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How is this any different for druids and warriors in large AoE pulls now?

If a competent paladin tank or deathknight tank is in the group, you can struggle all you want, but they're going to keep all of the adds but the one you currently have targetted.

It's still humiliating.

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Q u o t e:


This is true.

The benefit of Thunderclap is it does a lot of threat in one application. The downside is that if the warrior needs AE threat while it's on cooldown, he needs to use another ability (Shockwave if talented, or perhaps Challenging Shout.)

Consecrate and DnD have their downsides too. They tick, which is nice from a hands off approach. But it's also really easy for a moving add to make it all the way through the pool without getting a tick on them.

We were okay with Swipe being a little harder to use, since when it was used well it was just as effective as other AEs. But we now wonder if it has gone too far from a test of skill to a liability that makes people not want to group with druid tanks. Nobody wants to hear "Oh, just let the paladin grab the adds. It will be easier." It was humiliating in Karazhan for the Holy paladin to tank the ghosts that the warrior or druid couldn't hold down. (No disrepect to the pallies.)

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My feet are getting cold something is freezing underground and I just got an in game Non combat pet called [The Flying Pig]

I had given up on this subject I am still pinching myself to ensure I'm not dreaming

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Q u o t e:
GC, you should bear in mind that the limited area relative to consecrate would make swipe harder to use even if it applied a bleed DOT on those it struck. Even with the targeting requirement removed it still covers a lot less ground when used than any other AoE ability. I'd think the simple fact that it is smaller makes it harder to use. For purposes of comparison, as a Pally tank, when I have a horde of guys incoming, I typically put my consecrate out in front then back up, so they have to run through the whole thing to get to me, this makes it have a pretty massive area. After I get them the first time, I then use my consecrate normally, of course. Warriors can similarly grab a mass of guys even if some run behind them* and DK's can use their ability similar to how a Paladin uses his.

*Speaking of running behind, and 95% off topic, are you guys ever going to deal with how mobs "overstep" and go through the tank when the tank makes just a small adjustment in position. (Just thought I'd mention this).

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This, including mobs overcompensating, and having to have a target in front and in melee range to chain it in the first place, is pretty much the only reason swipe is sometimes difficult to use.

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Q u o t e:
but we now wonder if it has gone too far from a test of skill to a liability that makes people not want to group with druid tanks. Nobody wants to hear "Oh, just let the paladin grab the adds. It will be easier."

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It's not so much that it's easier, but that it's faster and dps doesn't like to wait, even when time doesn't really matter. When time actually matters, it just exacerbates the problem (enrage timers).

Give us decent passive, reactive based threat, an up front on cd snap aggro ability, fix mobs overcompensating for positional changes, and swipe will be fine the way it is.

The only thing we would be lacking, in comparison to paladins and death knights anyway, is a semi persistent aoe threat effect. And I'd be completely ok with that since our aoe is spammable.

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Q u o t e:


We were okay with Swipe being a little harder to use, since when it was used well it was just as effective as other AEs. But we now wonder if it has gone too far from a test of skill to a liability that makes people not want to group with druid tanks. Nobody wants to hear "Oh, just let the paladin grab the adds. It will be easier." It was humiliating in Karazhan for the Holy paladin to tank the ghosts that the warrior or druid couldn't hold down. (No disrepect to the pallies.)

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I kinda feel like this is true~ If we have a choice of an AoE tank, we almost never pick the druid :( Give swipe some love <3

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Q u o t e:
I kinda feel like this is true~ If we have a choice of an AoE tank, we almost never pick the druid :( Give swipe some love <3

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Kinda?

Let's talk Sarth. Who picks up the fire elemental adds? Who picks up the whelp adds? Do you put a druid in that role?

What about Gothik (that's the life-death guy, right? some of those names are so similar). Do you put a druid by himself on a side if you can avoid it? Does anyone have those same concerns about another tank soloing a side?

There are a number of aoe situations where you definitely avoid giving the druid the job if you can give it to any other tank. Even if the druid is a good bit more skilled or geared than the other tank (or a fair bit less geared when you'd normally put the most geared person on the boss). As a raid leader I certainly have to plan around the large AoE limitations of a druid and that just isn't an issue with any other tank.

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Q u o t e:


Kinda?

Let's talk Sarth. Who picks up the fire elemental adds? Who picks up the whelp adds? Do you put a druid in that role?

What about Gothik (that's the life-death guy, right? some of those names are so similar). Do you put a druid by himself on a side if you can avoid it? Does anyone have those same concerns about another tank soloing a side?

There are a number of aoe situations where you definitely avoid giving the druid the job if you can give it to any other tank. Even if the druid is a good bit more skilled or geared than the other tank (or a fair bit less geared when you'd normally put the most geared person on the boss). As a raid leader I certainly have to plan around the large AoE limitations of a druid and that just isn't an issue with any other tank.

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Gothik is a bit different in that the adds come from a known direction and if you're arranged correctly, it's always the front. It would actually be pretty easy to make sure you picked them up with swipe, rage allowing.

Picking up the adds on the Portal Keeper guardian spawns in VH, for example, is reallly easy as a druid, because you know where they're coming from.

Any time the adds are coming from all different directions however, like Sarth or Maexxna, makes it a nightmare for a druid. You just end up having to reposition so often, combined with mob overcompensation, everything ends up behind you for the first bit. By the time you can get threat on them, they're beating on the healer.

While some people hate swipe spam. I find it fine. I like that if swipe misses i can just use it again and again. if tclap misses then the warrior has to taunt SS or something else to get the mob not that that is something bad but its just not my idea of how I want to tank. That being said the areas i feel swipe is a hindrance is requires a target in melee range and isnt 360. The 360 becomes and issue if something runs past you while you waiting for the GCD to come up so you can swipe again. i would rather hit one mob thats behind me then turn my back to several to get that elusive one.

if we can have anything we want i want to see thorns buffed for ferals as it stands now its ok but overall is meh i usually forget to buff it.

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Q u o t e:

This is true.

The benefit of Thunderclap is it does a lot of threat in one application. The downside is that if the warrior needs AE threat while it's on cooldown, he needs to use another ability (Shockwave if talented, or perhaps Challenging Shout.)

Consecrate and DnD have their downsides too. They tick, which is nice from a hands off approach. But it's also really easy for a moving add to make it all the way through the pool without getting a tick on them.

We were okay with Swipe being a little harder to use, since when it was used well it was just as effective as other AEs. But we now wonder if it has gone too far from a test of skill to a liability that makes people not want to group with druid tanks. Nobody wants to hear "Oh, just let the paladin grab the adds. It will be easier." It was humiliating in Karazhan for the Holy paladin to tank the ghosts that the warrior or druid couldn't hold down. (No disrepect to the pallies.)

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To be honest, tclap threat is just like 2 swipe or 3 dot of consecrate or DND. If my math is right, I did like 700- 750 dmg tclap and 2k - 2.2k shockwave on average without crit.. So it's like 2.6k- 2.8k threat and 4k- 4.4k threat. Druid swipe did like 500 on average on my guild druid, so it's like 1.5k threat without crit. If you don't count other threat, just aoe threat. As average trash mob in naxx, a pack dies in 19 secs and this is most warrior do to save shockwave for another pack. In 19 secs, warrior can do 4 tclaps and 1 shockwave, so total threat for them alone will be 14400-15600 threat. For druid, you can do 19 swipe the most and ill say 14 the least. so druid total threat will be 21000-28500 threat. To be honest, warrior aoe threat is the worst. Druid aoe threat is good. The downside for druid is that they need work to pick up multiple mob. Just people keep saying that warrior aoe threat is fine.

I think we shall just take another aoe threat comparison on each tank again. =)

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Q u o t e:


I would like to say that as a warrior, I am perfectly fine with my AoE abilities being cooldown related. Very rarely does it cause any deaths... issues here and there sure, but those are minor... and that is what our single target / AoE taunts are for. Not to mention that sometimes in a clinch, our Demo shout can at least temporarily divert a fresh pack of mobs from running straight to a random player.


Being forced to spam one key over and over again until the end of time because you have no choice otherwise though... blech. That is definitely something that, in my eyes, falls under the whole "quality of life" category :)


My opinion? Move Swipe to being target capped again, much like Cleave (unless there is another off-cooldown ability druids already have that functions like that), and just find a new ability to create that fulfills the role of a druid thunderclap/consecrate. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it should probably be some sort of like "Intimidating Roar" thing... so it isn't actually damage being dished out... but massive chunks of threat much akin to TC/Consecrate. That way you can also have it be 360degrees without it being something that would just be friggin hilarious to see a bear do.


If the AoE-chunk-threat-ability was supposed to deal damage that is fine as well... I was just thinking of something a bear could do "realistically" to hold aggro on groups of mobs that were surrounding him completely.



I would think it awesome though if there was a 360degree swipe animation. Come on.... give us twirly bears. They have had the same skin since level 10, they deserve at least to be able to twirl. You know you want to :)

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actually, i really like that

30 second cooldown does 0 damage but is 360 10 yard range, threat should probably be about 1/2 that of a thunderclap, maybe slightly more to compensate for crits

alongside this however would require reverting the buff to swipe threat, but not back to its original threat, probably remove 1/2 of the buffed threat

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Q u o t e:

GC, you should bear in mind that the limited area relative to consecrate would make swipe harder to use even if it applied a bleed DOT on those it struck. Even with the targeting requirement removed it still covers a lot less ground when used than any other AoE ability. I'd think the simple fact that it is smaller makes it harder to use. For purposes of comparison, as a Pally tank, when I have a horde of guys incoming, I typically put my consecrate out in front then back up, so they have to run through the whole thing to get to me, this makes it have a pretty massive area. After I get them the first time, I then use my consecrate normally, of course. Warriors can similarly grab a mass of guys even if some run behind them* and DK's can use their ability similar to how a Paladin uses his.

*Speaking of running behind, and 95% off topic, are you guys ever going to deal with how mobs "overstep" and go through the tank when the tank makes just a small adjustment in position. (Just thought I'd mention this).

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2 situations i would like to describe

1) a standard pull in any heroic, you have a pack of 4-6 mobs. you can do one of either 2 things charge in or FF and pull them back to you

in both cases if you swipe as soon as the 1st target is in range, you will miss the mobs at the back of the pack. a warrior in this case can completely ignore the 1st add and run directly into the middle of the pack and TC and if using the charge method as a warrior you simply charge the back mob to begin with and TC mid charge, paladins and DKs can do exactly as the quoted text suggests

2) sarth whelps, this is the most painful thing every trying to do as a druid tank

you can get lucky and have them all go for the same healer, but most of the time they head in 4 different directions, and even if you demo shout its threat is so insignificant that by the time the global is over they will be off you and heading for the healers again, but if you swipe right off the bat, they spawn in such a fanned out pattern that even if they stood in place for 3 seconds after appearing, swipe would only hit maybe 3/4 of them


this goes back to the simple solution of allowing swipe to "bounce" or penetrate further through the target to the mobs behind it, that simple change would solve 90% of the problems with it