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Q u o t e:



I recall your analogy about the chair; it's easier to cut on leg to match the rest, than it is to extend the others. Well what is the fundamental problem here? Shaman regen blows. What it seems you're doing to counter this is nerfing all three other healing classes (DP + spirit nerf) which is completely contradictory to your philosophy. The more logical solution seems to be buffing resto shaman regen, and nerfing replenishment across the board. Buff mana tide to restore more mana to the shaman, similarly to how much all of the other mana feedback abilities restore, and buff restorative totems so it isn't such a waste of talent points, then cut replenishment effectiveness by about half, or more. The fsr is fun for nearly every priest and druid out there. It's not overpowered at all if you make an effort to balance around it.

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Didn't this same problem happen in BC and blizzard up thier base Mp5.

The dilema with replinishment is blizzard needs caster dps to have mana be something that is constent or else why wouldn't a raid just stack melee dps. Someone said cut replinishment in half, well this would kill arcane mages and maybe warlocks.

Mana regen is crazy right now but the way blizzard is going about it is like a dam is liking and they are sticking their fingers in the holes trying to stop the leaks. Another thing, I keep seeing posters say they are going to stack int, yes we can do this with gems and enchants but the gear itself will have a static amount of spirit on it or mp5. Yes we will gem more for int but if we had to choose between mp5 and spirit most of us will still pick the spirit gear with meditation getting buffed so its ruffly the same.

Let me show you what i'm talking about. Nidaba from EJs made a good point to me, assuming Med gets buffed to 50%:

"You still need spirit. The fact that your innate regen scales directly with spirit, but with the square root of intellect means that if you want to gain regen directly, spirit is still viable. In fact, it may be *more* viable after the patch, if we assume a 100% I5SR system, because they're buffing Meditation to compensate for the change.

@ 50% Meditation, every point of spirit is worth ~ 0.5 Mp5. In addition, it also grants 0.25 spellpower.

So ask yourself, which would you rather have on an item:
- 39 spirit = 14 Mp5 + 11.2 spellpower (example: [Punctilious Bindings])
- 15 Mp5 (example: [Cuffs of the Shadow Ascendant])

(note: this is assuming 50% Meditation, current coefficient. Obviously the coefficient will change, and we don't know to what, so these numbers are back-of-the-envelope made up. However, they're basically what we have at present, and they said I5SR regen shouldn't change, so ... )

The answer is obvious.

Remember: "stacking intellect" is not something you can really do when it comes to choosing cloth items. You can socket for it, sure. You can use a higher intellect (read: staff) weapon. You can use an intellect trinket. But that's it. You can't deliberately "gear" for intellect, because there aren't pieces that differ only in the amount of intellect.

And as long as the comparison is between an item with spirit and an item with Mp5, the spirit item remains far superior. In fact, it becomes slightly more attractive with a higher Meditation coefficient, simply because it will scale better in the long run. And on top of that ... baseline BoK means any paladin instantly gains you another 10% spirit, which is "free", as compared to your Mp5, which is static."

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Q u o t e:
The only way the regen nerfs make any sense is if Replenishment is someone's pet feature, and they're completely unwilling to nerf it. As it stands, they're nerfing everything else around it, instead of solving the actual thing they set out to solve.

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As much as I dislike cynical, tinfoil hat-isms - I'd have to agree. Nothing else really explains why they won't even respond to some of the points made about Replenishment.

Yes % buffs will always scale.

The fear come from replenishment int will become high with more gear. Replenishment makes int a scaling mp5 stat. since your suppose to assume you always have it around. What we are waiting to see is the number on how much.

Classes with high int tend to be pallys and shammys who favor mp5 in the first place.

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Q u o t e:
We actually want for healing to be less spammy and more about decisions and coordination. But if we did that sans other changes, everyone would be out of fsr even more and the content would be too easy. Make sense? Making regen more consistent is also the key to making healing more tactical and less monotonous and frenetic.

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Making anything more "consistent" will, by definition, make it more monotonous. Having essentially the same regen all the time does not encourage decisions or coordination at all, it encourages blind spamming because the opportunity cost of spamming will be greatly diminished. There will be no decision to make, because there won't be a good reason to not cast.

High not-casting regen and low casting regen is a mechanic that explicitly requires decisions, coordination, and planning. Constant regen is a mechanic that explicitly ignores decisions, coordination, and planning and fails to reward players who plan thier heals ahead of time. Is this really where we want the design philosophy to be headed?

If the issue is that people are getting too much mana, then yes, a change should be made, but the current strategy of removing a reward for good playing is not the way to do it. If you simply maintain the current system but reduce regen across the board (maybe for just preists or druids if that's the only issue), it would accomplish the same goal without homogenizing the healing experience.

Fighting to keep little green bars to the left isn't exactly an inherently thrilling activity; anything that makes it a little bit more interesting should be preserved. WoW should have these little tricks in it; that is precisely what makes the game interesting, for anyone who is serious enough to raid anyway; and it's not like this will have a huge effect on anyone else.

Loatheb is one example of a fight where this mechanic has a larger-than-intended effect, and as far as I know, the only one where it's all that serious. This isn't an issue with the mechanic, it's an issue with the fight. Let's be honest; if you're only casting 20% of the time, you're not going to run OOM, 5SR or no 5SR. There's no need to balance an entire mechanic based on an encounter that's the only one of its kind.

I get the feeling that we're being duped by semantics and you're just playing an early April Fools joke on us...

Maybe I'm just 'bad', but I already do think about mana and plan my heals around it.

If I spam heals I'll be oom in a few minutes.

I also never find myself outside the 5sr. Five seconds is a really long time when you're fighting a boss. It only takes a split second for someone to die.

Maybe I'll throw a few heals and then wait 2 or 3 seconds if I'm burning through mana too fast, then throw out more heals to people who need it. I often just pause slightly between heals, so I'm not just spamming and losing all my mana in a matter of minutes.

It's not like I ever spam and overheal to keep everyone perfectly topped off.

I like healing, it's challenging and requires a lot of focus. I'm afraid to see what Blizzard has in store to make healing more 'fun' and less 'spammy'. They're up to something, and it probably has to do with elitists bragging about how they fall asleep or go afk while healing.

I can assure you, the healers actually keeping the raid alive are very much awake, and very much watching our mana.

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Q u o t e:
Spirit is a great regen stat depending on your class. Many players never get out of the fsr until they overgear the content at which point mana really isn't what is slowing you down.

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Deal with overgearing then. Lowbies are actually out of fsr when levelling too you know...

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Q u o t e:
The only way the regen nerfs make any sense is if Replenishment is someone's pet feature, and they're completely unwilling to nerf it. As it stands, they're nerfing everything else around it, instead of solving the actual thing they set out to solve.

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A little cynical but rings of the truth.

Just like with the exception of a few shaman no healer really supports this nerf. Personally I see it as another simplification of the game and for me that means less enjoyable. Some of us like to be challenged and not have to rely on a DPS class for our mana returns.

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Q u o t e:
We actually want for healing to be less spammy and more about decisions and coordination. But if we did that sans other changes, everyone would be out of fsr even more and the content would be too easy. Make sense? Making regen more consistent is also the key to making healing more tactical and less monotonous and frenetic.

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You're nerfing the wrong thing then. Replenishment provides me with so much Mp5 its silly. All nerfing spirit regen will do is drive many of us to gear for replenishment. And since we won't have to work with the 5sr, we can spam even more, since replenishment is more powerful.

The only change this nerf will cause is for healing to become more spammy and less about decisions and coordination.

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Q u o t e:
I predict many players won't notice a difference especially on shorter fights like Arenas or trash.

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Trash isn't what most of us are worried about.

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Q u o t e:
Making regen more consistent is also the key to making healing more tactical and less monotonous and frenetic.

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Not being combative here, but when someone is playing whack-a-mole with green bars, I can't see that as anything BUT monotonous and/or frenetic.

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Q u o t e:


well I don't really care if they nerf spirit, I'll stack int once the nerf hits live, but I know without a doubt that once this is all over......replenishment will be nerfed and spirit will be left the way it will be...... watch i'd bet a million dollars on it.

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This is what I suspect is the ultimate goal.

They won't nerf replenishment first - they will first go about chipping away our own mana regen mechanics. Once there is nothing left to nerf, THEN they will nerf replenishment.

They can't admit they were wrong now, with everything thats been stated and the changes to most classes they made in order to support their idea of replenishment. So, they will do it the round-a-bout way.

Whoever remains a healer once all the nerfs are done, is a real trooper, and a glutton for punishment.

a point i keep seeing brought up is that they want DPSers to have good mana regen, but they want to reduce healer mana regen...if this is the case, they already have a mechanic they can buff to provide this exact benefit while nerfing replenishment.

Judgement of Wisdom fulfills exactly the roll they want. only people hitting the boss get a benefit. unlike with replenishment, it's not a spec specific buff(though it is a class specific buff, it could be spread around to others fairly easily). why don't they just buff JoW, and give abilities like it to other people to solve the mana issues? that way, they could reduce the effect of replenishment to prevent infinite healer mana(and if you don't think healers are still going to have infinite mana in uldular, then you're gonna be quite surprised), and still have DPS that can compete with infinite resource DPS.

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Q u o t e:
I chose "monotonous" and "frenetic" specifically because they both imply that you are spending every GCD on a heal (and probably a big one because why not - you can both afford it and have the need to make it count).

What we would like is for the chance to pause, perhaps to consider the fight, coordinate or just prevent overhealing, to exist. Without these changes, those pauses will just fill you bar back up.

We think we know exactly how long you can non-stop heal without going oom. If you discount any procs or cooldowns that let you get a little OOFSR mana, it isn't as long as some people imply (assuming you don't overgear the content or have Divine Plea).

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So the aim is it's going from tactically controlling your regeneration to controlling your spell usage with your limited mana pool in order to promote the more efficient spells over the expensive ones?

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Q u o t e:
I chose "monotonous" and "frenetic" specifically because they both imply that you are spending every GCD on a heal (and probably a big one because why not - you can both afford it and have the need to make it count).

What we would like is for the chance to pause, perhaps to consider the fight, coordinate or just prevent overhealing, to exist. Without these changes, those pauses will just fill you bar back up.

We think we know exactly how long you can non-stop heal without going oom. If you discount any procs or cooldowns that let you get a little OOFSR mana, it isn't as long as some people imply (assuming you don't overgear the content or have Divine Plea).

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Have you got any information you can pass on if you guys are going to tweak meditation at all for this change? ;p

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Q u o t e:
Spirit is a great regen stat depending on your class. Many players never get out of the fsr until they overgear the content at which point mana really isn't what is slowing you down. I predict many players won't notice a difference especially on shorter fights like Arenas or trash.

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You are so out-of-touch it's scary. An enormous amount of my regen in arenas comes from o5sr. It's the only way I can last over a minute.

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Q u o t e:


Have you got any information you can pass on if you guys are going to tweak meditation at all for this change? ;p

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Read the sticky and im sure its been posted everywhere.. meditation will be buffed to keep the MP5 values the same as they are now from your current spirit regeneration.

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Q u o t e:


Read the sticky and im sure its been posted everywhere.. meditation will be buffed to keep the MP5 values the same as they are now from your current spirit regeneration.

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that...really doesn't tell us anything about what the Oo5sr regen is going to be nerfed to.

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Q u o t e:
that...really doesn't tell us anything about what the Oo5sr regen is going to be nerfed to.

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He asked if Meditation would be changed when these "nerfs" happen which is clearly stated...:

"To make this change, we are reducing mana regeneration granted by Spirit across the board. However we are also boosting the effects of talents such as Meditation that increase regeneration while casting. The net result should be that your regeneration while casting will stay about the same, but your not-casting regeneration will be reduced."

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Q u o t e:
I chose "monotonous" and "frenetic" specifically because they both imply that you are spending every GCD on a heal (and probably a big one because why not - you can both afford it and have the need to make it count).

What we would like is for the chance to pause, perhaps to consider the fight, coordinate or just prevent overhealing, to exist. Without these changes, those pauses will just fill your bar back up.

We think we know exactly how long you can non-stop heal without going oom. If you discount any procs or cooldowns that let you get a little OOFSR mana, it isn't as long as some people imply (assuming you don't overgear the content or have Divine Plea).

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Or to put it another way, given the current huge difference between OO5SR and I5SR regen your choices are:
A) Balance priest/druid vs. shaman/pally regen around constant casting, making priests/druids OP for any fight where they *can* get OO5SR (which is what you deliberately did in 2.4 due to Sunwell)
or
B) Balance priest/druid vs. shaman/pally regen around priests/druids getting a fair amount of OO5SR time, which means that you *have* to make fights allow for that.

Cut that gap a bit and you gain the freedom to make both short Eredar Twins-style spamfests and long fights that encourage thought and organization.

That said, I'm worried that spirit, which is already the second-best regen stat by a decent margin to intellect even with a fair amount of OO5SR time, will become even less valuable with this change. Are you keeping this in mind when tweaking the formula (ie maybe make the formula be a little more spirit-weighted and less int-weighted, hell, maybe take int out entirely since it already has a big benefit to regen with replenishment, HoH, etc?)