---

Q u o t e:

-- The amount of base mana regen granted has been reduced 40%. We called this "Spirit" in the notes, since most players associate OOFSR regen with Spirit, but in reality Int factors into the equation as well and we only lowered the constant, not the relative contributions of Int or Spirit. In retrospect, this probably caused more confusion than it alleviated, but mana regeneration is a fairly technical concept.

-- The effects of talents that provide mana regen while casting have been increased by 67%. This includes: Arcane Meditation, Improved Spirit Tap, Intensity, Mage Armor, Meditation, Pyromaniac, and Spirit Tap. For example, Intensity and Meditation are now 17/33/50% mana regen while casting (up from 10/20/30%). For most dps classes who never got much mana from OOFSR in the first place, the results should not be noticeable. Boomkin may be a possible exception because of Innervate, and we'll take a look at that.

-- This should leave mana regeneration while casting (even the contribution of Spirit) relatively unchanged, but reduce mana regeneration while not casting by 40%. (If you don't understand our logic, I suggest you re-read the excellent post I quoted above.)

---

Thank you for giving us some numbers to crunch in advance to 3.1 being available for testing, hopefully not too soon in advance though *cough* :P

---

Q u o t e:


The goal is to have mana last about the same for all healers. We don't think many players would be that interested in a style where you heal crazy good for a short period and then run OOM. How classes manage their mana varies a lot, and we are making tweaks to it for 3.1 to try and keep them in line. For example, the shadow fiend needs to be more reliable.

I am still not following the logic that Int now trumps Spirit by even more. It may have been a better stat already, but these changes shouldn't affect it that much unless you A) skip Meditation and Intensity, or B) relied a whole lot more on OOFSR regen than the average raid healer of reasonable skill.

I will break from our normal practice and go ahead and provide the numbers, just to make sure nobody is guessing about the details when doing their estimates:

-- The amount of base mana regen granted has been reduced 40%. We called this "Spirit" in the notes, since most players associate OOFSR regen with Spirit, but in reality Int factors into the equation as well and we only lowered the constant, not the relative contributions of Int or Spirit. In retrospect, this probably caused more confusion than it alleviated, but mana regeneration is a fairly technical concept.

-- The effects of talents that provide mana regen while casting have been increased by 67%. This includes: Arcane Meditation, Improved Spirit Tap, Intensity, Mage Armor, Meditation, Pyromaniac, and Spirit Tap. For example, Intensity and Meditation are now 17/33/50% mana regen while casting (up from 10/20/30%). For most dps classes who never got much mana from OOFSR in the first place, the results should not be noticeable. Boomkin may be a possible exception because of Innervate, and we'll take a look at that.

-- This should leave mana regeneration while casting (even the contribution of Spirit) relatively unchanged, but reduce mana regeneration while not casting by 40%. (If you don't understand our logic, I suggest you re-read the excellent post I quoted above.)

-- Since paladins don't rely on any of those abilities for mana regeneration, we lowered the healing penalty of Divine Plea to -50%. We are also likely to make Spiritual Attunement provide less mana for non-tanking paladins. We are not touching Illumination for the moment. Nor are we lowering the effects of Replenishment (though as I have suggested, it would be our likely next target if we aren't happy with the results of these changes).

---

Maybe I'm not looking at the math correctly here ... but:

For the purposes of this example, let's assume I currently have 1000 mana regen while not casting and 325 mana regen while casting.

If you lower my not-casting regen by 40% that makes my new OOFSR regen 600.

If you increase my while-casting regen to 50% that makes my new while-casting regen 300.

Like I said, maybe I'm not looking at the math correctly here - and that's quite possible because I'm terrible at math - but the way you phrase it makes it seem as if the OOFSR regen is getting buffed, but if this is the case, it's a nasty nerf for both.

---

Q u o t e:
...We are also likely to make Spiritual Attunement provide less mana for non-tanking paladins...

---

If this change goes forward, Ret paladins will be useful for about 1 minute (if that).

If you don't buff JotW, ret paladins will be a joke for ulduar, and pretty much anything else. Yay oomadin and loladin again.

This seems to be a habit of you guys, you make paladins really strong at the beginning and then nerf us into the ground while buffing everyone else. This happened in Pre-BC and BC.

I hope you guys pay attention to the PTR testing and actually decide what to do from that ...

---

Q u o t e:


Maybe I'm not looking at the math correctly here ... but:

For the purposes of this example, let's assume I currently have 1000 mana regen while not casting and 325 mana regen while casting.

If you lower my not-casting regen by 40% that makes my new OOFSR regen 600.

If you increase my while-casting regen to 50% that makes my new while-casting regen 300.

Like I said, maybe I'm not looking at the math correctly here - and that's quite possible because I'm terrible at math - but the way you phrase it makes it seem as if the OOFSR regen is getting buffed, but if this is the case, it's a nasty nerf for both.

---

1000 * 30% = 300, you somehow have 25 MP5 added in there.
600 * 50% = 300 which is the same as right now.

Ghostcrawler:

How exactly do you see this effecting priests and druids in PVP , who were already having a difficult time keeping up with shamans and paladins in the mana battle. I already sacrificed a ton of regen to become hit capped on my gear, and now you guys are nerfing regen to the point where I don't feel I'll be able to keep up with anyone else. It has never been my style to straight up spam buttons in arena and constantly cast, priest spells cost too much to do that. And you can never sit down and get a swig to catch up to that paladin who was divine plea'ing while his DK hit a couple Survivability cooldowns.

What I see is an even larger gap between shamans and paladins (who already dominate the 2v2 brackets in particular) than there already is between priests and druids. (Who rely on the 5sr to be effective in arena)

If I am missing something here let me know.

---

Q u o t e:
Any chance your going to knock some spirit off gear and add mp5 to it?

---

Assuming you're getting any OO5SR time at all (and the whole idea behind this change is that they can now let us get OO5SR without it giving us more mana than we know what to do with) spirit is still better than mp5 for holy, especially since we're also getting spellpower from it. So no re-gearing/re-gemming should be needed, the hierarchy is still int > spi > mp5 for regen, spi is just a bit further from int and a bit closer to mp5 now.

---

Q u o t e:


1000 * 30% = 300, you somehow have 25 MP5 added in there.
600 * 50% = 300 which is the same as right now.

---

Just to explain further, as he gave a more "realistic" example you might see just by looking at a paperdoll...

To get those numbers (1000 mana OOC and 325 mana ifsr) you would have to have 964 spirit based OOC regen + 36 mana/5 from gear (check that 964*.3+36 = 325).

Your 964 spirit regen will be nerfed by 40%. New spirit ooc regen: 578
New ifsr regen: 289 (from spirit) + 36 (from mana/5, unchanged) = 325 mana5 ifsr, exactly the same as before.

Yes GC, you seem to be completely ignoring the PVP implications of this. You're leaving the mana regen of paladins and shamans the same (the two strongest pvp healers) and nerfing the regen of priests and druids (the two weakest). The implications of this are huge.

---

Q u o t e:
Yes GC, you seem to be completely ignoring the PVP implications of this. You're leaving the mana regen of paladins and shamans the same (the two strongest pvp healers) and nerfing the regen of priests and druids (the two weakest). The implications of this are huge.

---

really, bump until we get a reply. I'm going Oom a ton in arenas , see my above post. I already have expensive spells and way too little of a mana pool to go with it ;\

---

Q u o t e:
Just to explain further, as he gave a more "realistic" example you might see just by looking at a paperdoll...

To get those numbers (1000 mana OOC and 325 mana ifsr) you would have to have 964 spirit based OOC regen + 36 mana/5 from gear (check that 964*.3+36 = 325).

Your 964 spirit regen will be nerfed by 40%. New spirit ooc regen: 578
New ifsr regen: 289 (from spirit) + 36 (from mana/5, unchanged) = 325 mana5 ifsr, exactly the same as before.

---

Thanks for the clarification. I have no problem admitting how badly I fail at math. So essentially - since I never go outside of the FSR anyway, this means that I'll just have to drink before boss fights because I won't be topped off in the 20 seconds after we finish trash.

---

Q u o t e:

The goal is to have mana last about the same for all healers. We don't think many players would be that interested in a style where you heal crazy good for a short period and then run OOM. How classes manage their mana varies a lot, and we are making tweaks to it for 3.1 to try and keep them in line. For example, the shadow fiend needs to be more reliable.

---

Unless Shadowfiend becomes a un-dispellable debuff on the target and returns as much mana as Innervate then Holy Priests will not have the tools to prevent themselves from going OOM. They are going to need a lot of changes (inner focus, Holy Concentration, FSR regen being factored in, Spirit trinkets) to bring them in line with other healers

---

Q u o t e:
I am still not following the logic that Int now trumps Spirit by even more. It may have been a better stat already, but these changes shouldn't affect it that much unless you A) skip Meditation and Intensity, or B) relied a whole lot more on OOFSR regen than the average raid healer of reasonable skill.

---

Because INT still provides OOFSR regen, gives you crit, gives you a larger mana pool and gives you more mana Via Replenishment. Disc Priests/Pallys/Shaman also have talents which synergize with Int while Holy Priests/Druids do not

Spirit now gives... Mp5 and 0 synergy with talent trees focused around spirit (clearcasting/inner focus). Seriously, do you think turning spirit into MP5 (only if you have the required talents to make this so) is not a huge nerf and does not put it at a disadvantage with INT?

---

Q u o t e:
-- Since paladins don't rely on any of those abilities for mana regeneration, we lowered the healing penalty of Divine Plea to -50%. We are also likely to make Spiritual Attunement provide less mana for non-tanking paladins. We are not touching Illumination for the moment. Nor are we lowering the effects of Replenishment (though as I have suggested, it would be our likely next target if we aren't happy with the results of these changes).

---

THIS DOES NOT CHANGE THE AMOUNT OF MANA THEY GET. YOU ARE REDUCING THEIR HEALING OUTPUT, NOT THEIR MANA INPUT.

With the amount of overhealing a Holy Paly does, who cares if they have reduced healing for 15 seconds. This change will probably help their overall numbers and will still not prevent them from having endless mana.

Compare this to the nerf Druids and Priests are receiving and I really have to wonder why you think Pallys will have any issues in 3.1 with mana?

---

Q u o t e:
The goal is to have mana last about the same for all healers. We don't think many players would be that interested in a style where you heal crazy good for a short period and then run OOM. How classes manage their mana varies a lot, and we are making tweaks to it for 3.1 to try and keep them in line. For example, the shadow fiend needs to be more reliable.

---

How classes manage their mana is dependent on the style of their healing spells (single target, multi-target, HoTs) and how they regenerate mana. They were designed to be cooperative and you can't change one without fundamentally altering the other.

---

Q u o t e:
I am still not following the logic that Int now trumps Spirit by even more. It may have been a better stat already, but these changes shouldn't affect it that much unless you A) skip Meditation and Intensity, or B) relied a whole lot more on OOFSR regen than the average raid healer of reasonable skill.

---

The logic has been outlined mathematically several times in this thread by myself and links have been provided by others. It's not just logic, it's numbers. Numbers don't lie. You can address them, you can assault their assumptions or the methods by which they were obtained, but you can't make them change by ignoring them.

---

Q u o t e:
I will break from our normal practice and go ahead and provide the numbers, just to make sure nobody is guessing about the details when doing their estimates:

-- The amount of base mana regen granted has been reduced 40%. We called this "Spirit" in the notes, since most players associate OOFSR regen with Spirit, but in reality Int factors into the equation as well and we only lowered the constant, not the relative contributions of Int or Spirit. In retrospect, this probably caused more confusion than it alleviated, but mana regeneration is a fairly technical concept.

---

Thank you for directness. One +16 spirit gem will provide ~8.7 mp5 with 1k intellect OO5SR if the rest of the formula is right and has been left unchanged.

---

Q u o t e:
-- The effects of talents that provide mana regen while casting have been increased by 67%. This includes: Arcane Meditation, Improved Spirit Tap, Intensity, Mage Armor, Meditation, Pyromaniac, and Spirit Tap. For example, Intensity and Meditation are now 17/33/50% mana regen while casting (up from 10/20/30%). For most dps classes who never got much mana from OOFSR in the first place, the results should not be noticeable. Boomkin may be a possible exception because of Innervate, and we'll take a look at that.

---

While casting, you get 4.3 mp5. That means, using the equation above (switching 4.3 in for the previous 4.2 estimate), you only get more mana regen stacking spirit if you are out of the 5SR over 18% of the time. If over 20% of the fight is "not healing" (18% regen + time to get out of 5SR), no one will have mana issues regardless of class and we'll likely be very bored.

---

Q u o t e:
-- This should leave mana regeneration while casting (even the contribution of Spirit) relatively unchanged, but reduce mana regeneration while not casting by 40%. (If you don't understand our logic, I suggest you re-read the excellent post I quoted above.)

---

The excellent post you quoted above has been replied to. The problem is the randomness of clearcasting and talents like inner focus. Changing both mechanics (clearcasting and spirit) simultaneously when one could suffice isn't pragmatic and will have consequences for the structure of the two spirit-defined classes (neither of which I play; as stated, I've gone back to my shaman main since I started leveling this rogue).

I honestly don't know paladins, so I'll let them comment on their situation.

---

Q u o t e:
If this change goes forward, Ret paladins will be useful for about 1 minute (if that).

If you don't buff JotW, ret paladins will be a joke for ulduar, and pretty much anything else. Yay oomadin and loladin again.

This seems to be a habit of you guys, you make paladins really strong at the beginning and then nerf us into the ground while buffing everyone else. This happened in Pre-BC and BC.

I hope you guys pay attention to the PTR testing and actually decide what to do from that ...

---

Pretty sure they said that they wanted to nerf SA for holy without hurting longevity for prot *and* ret. The most likely thing I see them doing is nerfing SA baseline, buffing JotW, and putting a deep prot talent that brings SA back to where it is already.

GC, thank you for the numbers and for an accurate explanation of the target of the nerf. Druids and priests can now stop panicking. I think a lot of this controversy could have been avoided had the nerf been explained in accurate terms before.

I may have a leg up, since I blog and read lots of Wow-related sites, but I don't theorycraft. However, i do in fact know the difference between Spirit the stat and the OFSR regen number. They are even in different places on my character tooltip :) To me, spirit is not the same as regen. It does many things, and I'm quite aware of it's position in the regen equation, but I know it's not the only factor.

I certainly think a nerf to spirit itself would have been a very, very different nerf from a perentage-based reduction to our O5SR regen numbers. It would have been unpredictable, and it would have made certain pieces of gear, like the Spirit World Glass and the Majestic Dragon Figurine, much worse than their item level promised.

Give the community credit. Let us know exactly what's being tweaked. A nerf to the functioning of spirit would have been much more catastrophic for druids and priests because our gear has so much of it on there. Can you blame us for thinking we'd need mp5 and need to regem if the nerf had indeed been to spirit itself?

Misinformation breeds all kinds of mischief, and these forums are a great example.

---

Q u o t e:

What we would like is for the chance to pause, perhaps to consider the fight, coordinate or just prevent overhealing, to exist. Without these changes, those pauses will just fill your bar back up.

---

I will be really surprised if these changes have that effect.

The logical way to encourage people to take short OFSR breaks is to INCREASE the relative benefit of being OFSR. You'd probably best accomplish this in the current framework by nerfing IFSR regen (right now, no matter how good OFSR became, people could spam heal and ignore it).

Then, people would plan ahead, thinking "if I spam, there's a good chance I run oom, but if I can squeeze some short breaks in, I will get really good regen and prevent that!" It will (more likely) be something they want and a lot of the hurt feelings about this change is from players that already do this and enjoy it.

Instead, the change your implimenting will be more like this: "If I spam, there's a good chance I run oom. But OFSR regen isn't very good either, so the opportunity cost of taking short breaks for regen that is only slightly better is not very attractive... I'd rather spam to reduce the risk of someone dying than gain a meager amount of mana through strenuous OFSR dancing that won't even let me cast an extra spell." Players will run oom (if you successfully design content) and only THEN be forced to sit OFSR and regen.



I completely understand that regen is too high. People spam more than ever with less OOM risk than ever. So I can support this nerf because I think it will be good for the game... but I don't think it will accomplish your goals at all. Did no one use the words "opportunity cost" when discussing potential regen changes? You are NOT going to get people WANTING to sit OFSR more by NERFING OFSR regen.

Makes no sense.

---

Q u o t e:
It's becoming overly obvious the devs don't play priests or druids. Or maybe, they got outlasted in an arena even by a druid and priest that were actually good at keeping their mana up...

---

THAT'S RIGHT NECRODAN, THEY'RE ALL OUT TO GET YOU BECAUSE THEY HATE YOU, THERE'S NO POSSIBLE OTHER REASON WHY THEY'RE NOT PRIORITIZING YOUR NEEDS AND DESIRES ABOVE ANYTHING ELSE IN THE GAME, AMIRITE?

2 % representation in top 100 amirite?

---

Q u o t e:


THAT'S RIGHT NECRODAN, THEY'RE ALL OUT TO GET YOU BECAUSE THEY HATE YOU, THERE'S NO POSSIBLE OTHER REASON WHY THEY'RE NOT PRIORITIZING YOUR NEEDS AND DESIRES ABOVE ANYTHING ELSE IN THE GAME, AMIRITE?

---

have u ever even pvp'ed ? no seriously

i've put 200 + days on this guy raiding , arena'ing and pvp'ing since level 60. And this regen nerf is knocking us back even more.

Paladins already dominating the raiding game, and the pvp scene. This will continue that dominance.