World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Why -didn't- you nerf Overkill?

Aery

Cairne

261. Re: Why -didn't- you nerf Overkill? 02/16/2009 09:26:42 AM PST

Q u o t e:

Overkill and glyphed Vigor are something we will probably look at for 3.1, depending on how the current changes shake out.

wat? 30% mut damage not enough?

???wow.web.forums.error500.message???

Ippon - Failthread from failalt is fail.

Murdian

Turalyon

263. Re: Why -didn't- you nerf Overkill? 02/16/2009 09:32:51 AM PST

Why are so many priest bad at this game.... good disc priest never had an issue. Stop going into arena as holy. Gtfo off forums dealing with rogues and learn to play your class.

Raxzergling

< ÖverKill >

Silvermoon

264. Re: Why -didn't- you nerf Overkill? 02/16/2009 09:40:07 AM PST

Q u o t e:

Firstly, the point of his post is that THERE IS NO BURST OUT OF STEALTH BECAUSE WE DIE ALOT IN THE FACE UNTIL WE ARE DEAD OUT OF STEALTH

Secondly, mages DO have consistent damage. You are retarded. No, rogues cannot one shot arcane mages. They have ice block, which allows a recover from their healer. Unlike DK's and warriors, we can't instantly be at the healer when ice block goes up to stop a recover.

firstly, I consistently get 2 shotted out of stealth - ambush + evis easily does ups of 17k dmg. Yes i have low resilience (450) however, i don't see 1k resilience changing this much, might have to use an extra auto attack or soemthing. You may not have burst against plate wearers, but you most definately do against cloth.

Secondly, you say mages have consistent dmg, but don't back up your claim. If your arcane, yes you do have consistent (3 seconds) dmg - that just got nerfed hardcore - but in return you have ZERO survivability - don't count ice block's 5 minute cd (and the lack of mobility it provides).

Here's a tip about ice block - wait it out you don't even have to switch, if it's no healer - easy kill when he comes out, if it is a healer, he stays in block long enough for you to resteatlh and reset and try to one shot him again - but this time he doens't have block.

As arcane, the fastest reactions in the world aren't fast enoguh to block when a rogue opens, I literally have the release spirit log up before the rogue even comes out of stealth and i start seeing combat text.

And lastly to prove your credibility as poor once again (for completeness), you CAN be at the healer immediately. remember how dominant ShS was in BC? Now spec into it with daggers and see how you do ;)

Blizz has just destroyed the main combo that has defined the spec since the beginning of the game. PoM+AP was the entire reason I chose to become a mage.

Raxzergling

< ÖverKill >

Silvermoon

266. Re: Why -didn't- you nerf Overkill? 02/16/2009 09:47:43 AM PST

Q u o t e:

Understand, when I say "Priests," I no more refer to all priests than when I say "Huntard," am I referring to all Hunters. There's good and bad of every class and I acknowledge that.

Still; what times I skim over the Rogue forums, the two non-alt classes I see persistently saying "OH YEA, DAT PATCH FELT GEWD DIDNT IT ROGUES?? LOLOL" the most, are Priests and Warlocks. As though nerfing Rogues and keeping certain Paladins and Death Knights in their current status makes everything better for everyone.

It's truly interesting logic. I rolled a Death Knight to see if I'd somehow understand it.

Unfortunately, I did not.

You bring up a lot of good valid points. I think mages and rogues got hit pretty hard and neither are even in top 2 of broken classes. I have to admit, rogue burst vs cloth is stupidly OP right now - but I don't know how to fix that without completely gimping them vs plate/mail whathaveyou. Also, I think arcane burst was a little out of control, however, the changes implemented I think were incorrect as well. POM+AP is the signature move of mages since the original alpha testing. I think arcane mages should of gotten a little nerf to ONLY arc bar dmg (not both nerfs) and then some extra survivability needed to be added.

but the main point is, the hero class and paladins weren't really addressed and they are just running wild atm. (hunters and maybe even ?warriors? can be thrown in there too...)

Blizz has just destroyed the main combo that has defined the spec since the beginning of the game. PoM+AP was the entire reason I chose to become a mage.

Raxzergling

< ÖverKill >

Silvermoon

267. Re: Why -didn't- you nerf Overkill? 02/16/2009 09:51:18 AM PST

Q u o t e:

Are you really trying to say that Shadowstep Ambush is killing you?

Really?

Because you just lost all credibility.

It may or may not be,

but I consistently get ambushed for 12-14k and consistently get eviscerated immediately after for ~7k.

I know a majority of rogues go mut atm, but i don't even see enough of the rogue to know what spec they are (without going frost).

I don't lose any credibility, just the game is no longer fun pvp b/c rogues just one shot all day long.
And if you're going to b*tch about mobility, don't spec mut - you got the mobility spec of your dreams last xpac.

Also if you want to stab at ppl's credibility, address the whole post like I did please, instead of picking one thing. I know you are all poor at debates, but at least give an attempt :)

Blizz has just destroyed the main combo that has defined the spec since the beginning of the game. PoM+AP was the entire reason I chose to become a mage.

Raxzergling

< ÖverKill >

Silvermoon

269. Re: Why -didn't- you nerf Overkill? 02/16/2009 09:57:31 AM PST

Q u o t e:

Haha

HAHAHAHAHA

Go on...

Blizz has just destroyed the main combo that has defined the spec since the beginning of the game. PoM+AP was the entire reason I chose to become a mage.

Bellyrubs

Bleeding Hollow

271. Re: Why -didn't- you nerf Overkill? 02/16/2009 10:03:40 AM PST

Q u o t e:

firstly, I consistently get 2 shotted out of stealth - ambush + evis easily does ups of 17k dmg. Yes i have low resilience (450) however, i don't see 1k resilience changing this much, might have to use an extra auto attack or soemthing. You may not have burst against plate wearers, but you most definately do against cloth.

Secondly, you say mages have consistent dmg, but don't back up your claim. If your arcane, yes you do have consistent (3 seconds) dmg - that just got nerfed hardcore - but in return you have ZERO survivability - don't count ice block's 5 minute cd (and the lack of mobility it provides).

Here's a tip about ice block - wait it out you don't even have to switch, if it's no healer - easy kill when he comes out, if it is a healer, he stays in block long enough for you to resteatlh and reset and try to one shot him again - but this time he doens't have block.

As arcane, the fastest reactions in the world aren't fast enoguh to block when a rogue opens, I literally have the release spirit log up before the rogue even comes out of stealth and i start seeing combat text.

And lastly to prove your credibility as poor once again (for completeness), you CAN be at the healer immediately. remember how dominant ShS was in BC? Now spec into it with daggers and see how you do ;)

First off, if you let the rogue walk up to you out of stealth, you get to die, capishe? You're a mage. Kings of kite. !*%!ing play like it. Our entire burst IS out of stealth. You don't have any idea what you're talking about.

I do count iceblock as survivablilty because it IS survivability. It's a fight reset when they have a healer nearby, and a free nova and/or blink at the least if there is none. We're talking about arena here, not some %@%%! ass duels where you can't use cooldowns. How about this, don't count rogue burst as crits because it doesn't always happen. Makes just as much sense, no? And if you get ambushed for 17k, HIT YOUR ICEBLOCK SCRUB

REACTION TIMES ARE AWESOME KIDS

And to the sustained damage, yes, I was talking about arcane. Arcane is still the dominant mage spec. Spec it.

And besides, this is a thread about overkill and the justification of nerfing mutilate and fixing the DD bug over nerfing our out of stealth burst, which by looking at your posts (17k ambush+7k evisc) you've done nothing but prove.

Thanks for supporting the rogue community.

Oh, and btw, your arena representation at high brackets is still higher than rogues.

So I'll throw the L2P card your way too.

Q u o t e:
2)Your resilience is low. Certain Rogue builds are crit heavy. I also can't see your health totals, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess they're low. Which is also tied into your resilience. But if you're getting popped by 12-14k Ambushes? You're flatout lying. The best Ambush I was able to do while wearing the current gear I've got on now was 12k with Shadowstep, Loatheb's Trinket proc'd, and Dirty Deeds affecting the target(meaning a 20% damage boost while they were under 35% health). So yeah. There's somehing going on there like a Berserker buff or something, because it'd require alot more PvE gear which means...omgosh, they'll die if you crit them!

I heard BG experiences are good enough for pvp balance.

Q u o t e:

Go on...

He doesn't need to, he's got better ratings than you.

[ Post edited by Bellyrubs ]

Q u o t e:
It doesn't help that Vanish breaking is up there with Onyxia deep breathing more in the sacred Annals of Wait is This a Joke or Not I Can't Tell Anymore?

Ashrial

Shattered Hand

272. Re: Why -didn't- you nerf Overkill? 02/16/2009 10:09:15 AM PST

Why did mutilate get nerfed (possibly double nerfed), when a class with plate, more survivability cooldowns, and more passive defenses can do this kind of sustained damage? Don't even bother looking at the second target, just watch primary targets damage for 41 seconds. You know, rogues may have had a little bit more burst than needed on cloth, but gutting rogue sustained dps was not the answer. Once that initial 6 seconds is over, dps plummets for pvp rogues. Are you telling me these guy in plate doing this type of sustained damage is fine, but a rogue doing 1 mutilate every 6 seconds (the time it takes to build up 60 energy) was overpowered?

http://files.filefront.com/fairlolwmv/;13298780;/fileinfo.html

[ Post edited by Ashrial ]

Midai

< Smoke Circle >

Malorne

273. Re: Why -didn't- you nerf Overkill? 02/16/2009 10:19:14 AM PST

I love how all these people theory craft about when rogues, when some of them probably haven't even touched a rogue before. Not everyone has two SRs and full Valorous. I would like to see some numbers from someone who doesn't have the easy mode pve gear.

Weapons make mutilate hit hard or moderately. I have Anarchy and a Murder and I see my damage and I am like hey! I hit that guy for 1.2k with each hand! WOOO.

People with SRs are like, I hit that guy for 2.2k each hand, DUB YU TEE EEFF BLIZZARD Y U NERF ME?

This may seem cliche' but, "the class doesn't need balancing, its the weapons." Can we get some posts from people who actually play rogues at level 80 that say we are OP and have some reasoning behind it. Mutilate hits hard whoopty friggin doo. OF COURSE IT WILL HIT HARD WITH THE BEST DAGGERS IN THE GAME. When you have 2 SRs they have 20+ DPS more then any other weapon in the game! I mean come on a PVE pansy that farms for those things is going to hit a lot harder then someone with deadly weapons or 10 man weapons.

Mutilate is fine, what really needs to be looked at is the fact that is PVP is supposed to be fun, bursting players is one of the highlights for pvp. Resilience does help once you get to 600, I play with 6xx resilience at the moment and rogues can't even break me down to 50% with SRs. If you want to pvp, get pvp gear. If not go back to your monotonous raids trying to convince that standing in stuff on the ground isn't going to give people epics.

People PVP with PVP gear or they have PVE gear to hit hard. Don't complain when everyone has access to pvp gear and you choose to hit hard with PVE gear. Consequences are made from the decisions of the people behind the charecter not by blizzard.

Hey,
Could you walk into the kitchen and get yourself a tall glass of STFU.
Btw don't hit the coconut tree on the way out

Kallistae

< Rebirth >

Zul'jin

274. Re: Why -didn't- you nerf Overkill? 02/16/2009 10:21:46 AM PST

FYI the difference between a Mutilate with SR and a Mutilate with Anarchy is about 60 damage, not 1000.

http://www.rebirth-guild.com

Helljumper

< ARMY of DARKNESS >

Kargath

275. Re: Why -didn't- you nerf Overkill? 02/16/2009 10:29:56 AM PST

So basically: "It was a small patch so we took the easy route."

Thanks for clarifying that Ghostcrawler. Not only did it lower our initial burst, but mutilate's sustained damage is a joke now.

Anyone remember how in the beta Blizzard was satisified with the rogue class's dps in raids, only to find that it was because of a bug with Master Poisoner? And upon fixing it our dps dropped below hybrid classes? Perhaps the bug with dirty deeds making mutilate hit harder? The bug fixing it lowered it more.

0-2 Blizzard.

(IMO you guys should just make Diablo 3 faster so I can have an excuse to quit this game that buffs and nerfs classes from baseless point of views. How do justify nerfing rogues when DKs/Retpallies/Hunters do just as much burst damage? Don't look at low-end players complaining, look at top end players that know what they're doing. Arenajunkies.com is a good source.)

Midai

< Smoke Circle >

Malorne

276. Re: Why -didn't- you nerf Overkill? 02/16/2009 10:36:52 AM PST

Q u o t e:
FYI the difference between a Mutilate with SR and a Mutilate with Anarchy is about 60 damage, not 1000.

May I see the reasoning behind it? I am sure I exaggerated but calculations will need to be made, sir/ma'am.

Hey,
Could you walk into the kitchen and get yourself a tall glass of STFU.
Btw don't hit the coconut tree on the way out

Aery

Cairne

277. Re: Why -didn't- you nerf Overkill? 02/16/2009 10:39:10 AM PST

Q u o t e:

20%, math is fun.

150-30=120

120/150=.8

20% nerf

okay... 20%.

???wow.web.forums.error500.message???

Ippon - Failthread from failalt is fail.

Midai

< Smoke Circle >

Malorne

278. Re: Why -didn't- you nerf Overkill? 02/16/2009 10:42:46 AM PST

Oh sorry let me elaborate, the difference between using an anarchy and a SR.

Hey,
Could you walk into the kitchen and get yourself a tall glass of STFU.
Btw don't hit the coconut tree on the way out

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

279. Re: Why -didn't- you nerf Overkill? 02/16/2009 11:00:33 AM PST

Q u o t e:
I appreciate the response. I would like to ask if you are going to do the same 'toning down' to all other classes who can do just, as much, if not more, in that same timeframe and if there are more buffs coming to help the overall sustained damage of rogues?

Yes. Players tend to compare themselves to other classes, while we try and look at the big picture. Several of the egregious cases for various classes have been nerfed and there are more coming.

On the second question, yes, we have several changes in mind for 3.1 for rogues and only announced a few.

Q u o t e:
You're a *** tool, just sayin'

And you are done posting in our forums. If you disagree with our changes, that’s cool, but this is not the way to express your point.

Q u o t e:
I have been a mutilate rogue since s3. Mutilate has always been about setting up a kill, and bursting someone down inside of a KS, with strong poisons and decent sustained DPS to help make up for the lack of mobility.

Now the burst feels very, very low. We do not have the mobility or survivabity to play the outlast game. Poisons are not as strong as they were pre-TBC, since wound doesnt stack and they have 0 dispell resist. At this point people will be QQing "OMG they have a 50% proc rate!!!", but they dont realize that mutilate already had a 40% proc rate on PVP poisons, because they were used to playing agaisnt sub rogues.

We agree with you about how an Assassination rogue should play – setting up a kill and then delivering it. But bursting someone down who is crowd-controlled while the victim has very limited decisions they can actually make to avoid death is only fun for the rogue. The Mutilate button push is just very strong when poisons are nearly always on the victim.

I have said before that we don't think Arena is fun when healers are immortal until mana-drained. However, we also don't think Arena is fun when someone always dies in the opening few seconds. The matches need to last long enough for something to actually happen -- for you to decide who you are going to attack or how to respond to their actions. If someone literally has almost no response for your attacks then that is not skill that is allowing you to win matches (and I am not just talking to rogues here).

We have made burst nerfs to Retribution paladins, death knights, Arms warriors, Arcane mages, hunters, Feral druids and now rogues. Almost unanimously, the nerfed classes thought that nerfs were needed but that our specific nerfs went too far. Nerfing classes is never fun. Players hate it, and ultimately it means we screwed up or at the very least failed to predict new tactics. But we still need to do it for the good of the game when we think it is warranted. There will be more.

Forum > CLASS ROLES > DAMAGE DEALING