Ok, so I might have misspelled Loatheb - oh well. Here's the question. You get eclipse and nature's grace so that when eclispe procs from your wrath, your starfire's dps far exceeds your wrath's. I get that. But what about the loatheb fight, where you're almost guaranteed to crit, using either spell. Essentially the question is: In a situation where you always crit, with NG's time ruduction (which yes I know it has diminishing returns but DOES eat into the GCD) and doubled damage from crits in mind, which provides better dps? Starfire or wrath?

Wrath till Eclipse, then Starfire till it's over.

50% does not equal 100%. Yes, you have a very high chance to crit on Loatheb, but it's not 100%. If you bring up eclipse, then yes, you will have ~100%(50% + 15% + 30-35[your own]) crit with Starfire; which is what I, personally, want to aim for. But, I would rather wrath than starfire if my crit isn't 100% on that fight because wrath is half the cast time and gives me more opportunities to crit for extra damage.

So what you would want to do then is eclipse for wrath instead of of starfire?

Personally I am running around a 99% crit rate on loatheb......that other 1% from hitting the spore to start with.

Varying on how much haste you have, think about this: your only the haste you have on the fight when you proc NG. So unless your haste is theoretically at 20%, wrath should come out ahead (yes numbers are not that nice exactly, but I am not doing the math here). So if raid buffed your at less then 2.4s starfires, cast only it (or heroism is popped)

But lets say a moonkin is sitting at 25% crit. You get another 3% from IIS, 3% from IFF, 4% from talent, 5% from set bonus. Well well well, self buffed that is 40%. Lets say a scorch debuff is also on the target, you get some more crit from kings ect, your over 100% crit before other potential buffs.

So cast starfire to proc a Solar Eclipse. If heroism is up ignore eclipse.

---

Q u o t e:
Ok, so I might have misspelled Loatheb - oh well. Here's the question. You get eclipse and nature's grace so that when eclispe procs from your wrath, your starfire's dps far exceeds your wrath's. I get that. But what about the loatheb fight, where you're almost guaranteed to crit, using either spell. Essentially the question is: In a situation where you always crit, with NG's time ruduction (which yes I know it has diminishing returns but DOES eat into the GCD) and doubled damage from crits in mind, which provides better dps? Starfire or wrath?

---

"In fights that buff your Crit Chance like Loatheb, the Wrath Eclipse buff becomes better."

From Graylo's blog and my personal experience.


On Loatheb (and ONLY Loatheb) I advocate proccing for Wrath.

You can find Graylo's math and a very good article on the subject here:

http://graymatterwow.blogspot.com/2009/02/eclipse-part1-which-buff-is-best.html

Just from personal experiences I always get a higher dps w/ wrath but my overal damage seems higher w/ starfire. Weird.

After working the numbers, with IFF, moonkin form, and nature's majesty plus my own crit chance and loatheb's buff, I have nearly an 80% chance to crit with wrath at any given time. Not to mention, I get a 3% boost from imp IS.

With those buffs, plus eclipse and imp IS, my crit chance for starfire when eclipse procs is 113% - over kill.

Now I know that if crit is taken outta the picture, wrath pwns starfire. It's a much faster spell cast time so it has much better dps. So, let me rephrase this question. Does 20% crit push starfire's dps beyond wrath's dps which is inherently higher and has a 3% boost?

---

Q u o t e:



"In fights that buff your Crit Chance like Loatheb, the Wrath Eclipse buff becomes better."

From Graylo's blog and my personal experience.


On Loatheb (and ONLY Loatheb) I advocate proccing for Wrath.

You can find Graylo's math and a very good article on the subject here:

http://graymatterwow.blogspot.com/2009/02/eclipse-part1-which-buff-is-best.html

---

Thanks!

Why would you cast IFF on a fight like loatheb?

---

Q u o t e:
Why would you cast IFF on a fight like loatheb?

---

Erm, hit and crit maybe?

Do you carry both the starfire and wrath idols on you? I won the starfire idol early enough that I never purchased the wrath idol from emblems. If the old idol swapping were viable, I'd probably be carrying both idols now. Some fights it takes so long to proc eclipse off wrath that I wish all those wrath casts had the wrath idol. If you cast to proc eclipse to wrath like this, do you switch to the wrath idol?

I hadn't thought about using the wrath eclipse for this fight. The high crit means I proc eclipse off wrath in no time and I always thought wrath had issues with the GCD and NG on crit. I might have to give it a try.

I thought Starfire would be better overall spell on Loatheb because nature's grace provides less benefit for wrath, and the crit rate will be at, or close to 100% with raid buffs.

With....
50% loatheb buff
10% Scorch
5% Moonkin Aura
5% For 4 piece set bonus (if you have that)
4% Nature's majesy
3% Improved Faerie Fire (preferably feral is putting up FF)
3% Improved Insect Swarm
3% Focus magic (if you can convince a mage to give it to you)

You'd need a 17% caster form crit rate to have 100% chance to crit with starfire. If that is the case, then there is no need to even proc a *lunar eclipse on the fight, just keep up dot(s) and spam starfire (tbc rotation! ).

So the question becomes is starfire spam with 100% Crit rate better, or an eclipsed, insect swarm benefited wrath ? Wrath wouldn't quite be 100% crit, but close to it - and it would clip the GCD alot, but it would have the benefit of +13% damage from insect swarm and eclipse.

And of course when bloodlust is up, starfire is better anyway.

---

Q u o t e:

You'd need a 17% caster form crit rate to have 100% chance to crit with starfire. If that is the case, then there is no need to even proc eclipse on the fight, just keep up dots and spam starfire. (TBC rotation - yay! )

---

Good point. I may have to try both. Proc for wrath and ignore eclipse rotations.

Ok, ok. So I got off my butt and decided to run the numbers like I should have in the first place.

So, what did I find? Using the normal doomkin rotation (IS/MF/FF - if needed, wrath til eclipse proc, SF, repeat) is a BAD IDEA. You're much better off just hitting IS/MF/FF then spamming wrath, completely ignoring the eclipse proc.

What about the eclipse for wrath? Ran these numbers too, and it's about the same dps.

So, either IS/MF/FF and spam wrath OR IS/MF/FF and SF until eclipse procs, then wrath.

Any confirmation on this?

---

Q u o t e:
Starfire is a better overall spell on Loatheb because nature's grace provides no benefit for wrath

---

NG increases wrath's dps too. I've spent a lotta time on training dummies and I've found it eats into the GCD. Can anyone else confirm/second this?

---

Q u o t e:


NG increases wrath's dps too. I've spent a lotta time on training dummies and I've found it eats into the GCD. Can anyone else confirm/second this?

---

yes, with enough haste it does eat into GCD


Still a better choice on Loetheb, IMHO.


To be blunt this conversation is just quibbling. Unless you are wiping on Loetheb and the difference between 3200 dps and 3400 dps is going to save the day, do whatever you want.

starfire to proc eclipse wrath for eclipse duration back to starfire. keep moonfire up



/thread

---

Q u o t e:
I spam Gyphed Moonfire for amazing DPS.

---

WOOT, 350 MOONFIRE CRIT!!!!

;)