This doesn't sound the least bit fun... guess I'll let my shiny new PvP gear I got from 25 man badges and Wintergrasp rot. It doesn't seem like it will be worth the hassle of looking for someone to play with really. For all I know their stupid hidden rating could be far too high or low compared to mine. Nice job getting more people interesting in arena Blizz. I'm sorry but watching your rating go down even if you win more then you lose isn't fun, it's demoralizing and discourages play. That is why this math upsets people so much - because watching their rating sink despite winning more games then they lost is demoralizing and discouraging.

---

Q u o t e:


Honestly, that appears to be the opposite of what's going on. The system is zeroing in on teams that they go 50/50 against. That's a good thing. Unfortunately for their team, the teams they've been going 50/50 against are way below their team rating, so when they win they don't go up much and when they lose they go down a lot.

---

Ya your right I was trying to make a point but got mixed up somewhere.

So what u mean is its too quick to judge they suck really bad and matching them with teams that are way below what they should be?

Maybe less of a range in skill rating for matches, or slower matches.. I dunno I'm completely confused now and am just gonna have to see how my mage does this week ;p

Kalgan, first, thanks for the reply to my post. It's a lot more than I expected. By far.

It does shed some light on the system. There seems to be more than one layer to it, since you keep talking about a confidence rating. So it seems fairly complex.


I am absorbing the results as I type this, but I guess the question that comes to mind is why so low ? We were competing fairly decently in S4 between 1500 and 1600. Yes, gear changed, talents changed. Heck, a whole expansion came out.

But I'm reading other people's posts and everyone is significantly lower than they used to. Not that it's a problem in and of itself. It's just a matter of getting used to it. However, first, new teams start at 1500, so with a presistent hidden rating that stays low, it will look like they're struggling at first and might get discouraged. Second, rating restrictions on gear are far higher than the 1000-1300 rating bracket, making it look even more inaccessible than ever (though I of course don't have the numbers on how many people have access to the gear at the moment).

It does seem that, overall, the new hidden ratings are way lower that previous team ratings under the old formula. Again, nothing wrong with that, but the whole system surrounding it needs shifted down, it seems. Namely: the rating new teams start at (1500) and gear requirements. That's pretty much what I already asked in this thread actually.

i guess the frustration (for me and many people) comes from seeing such low ratings, which really don't match what people had previous seasons. The fact that the visible team rating has to line up to the lower hidden rating probably doesn't help the transition to the new system for many.

Again, thanks. Hope you can clarify the above, though I have a feeling those witll be S6 changes.



PS: One of those losses, someone knocked on my door and we didn't accept the queue (game at 2/5/2009 23:32 I think). I remember reading there was something about preventing people from bailing on games, but I thought that I only applied if we had accepted the queue. Oh well, it's just one loss.

Another loss, my game closed itself in the middle of a match. Not quite sure what happened. Maybe I hit the wrong key or something, but I doubt it.


EDIT: I typed this as you typed your other replies. Seems you understand what people don't like. Only convinces me even more that the numbers need re-aligned.

---

Q u o t e:
It's evident that the real problem is that you're simply awful.

---

Only according to the very flawed system blizzard forced on us.

Honestly the new system is not going to work. I don't want to be forcefully matched to people who the game "thinks" is a fair rival. Our playing abilities being the same or not. This type of matching can't be done correctly because many things like class compositions, luck, and other things that can't be accounted for. Druid + Druid might fair better agaisnt Mage + Mage, but the same might not apply agaisnt Rogue + Rogue (random comps just to make a point.) You can't tell how well someone plays based on who they win or lose agaisnt.

---

Q u o t e:
Honestly the new system is not going to work. I don't want to be forcefully matched to people who the game "thinks" is a fair rival. Our playing abilities being the same or not. This type of matching can't be done correctly because many things like class compositions, luck, and other things that can't be accounted for. Druid + Druid might fair better agaisnt Mage + Mage, but the same might not apply agaisnt Rogue + Rogue (random comps just to make a point.) You can't tell how well someone plays based on who they win or lose agaisnt.

---

Soooooo the solution is?

I'm being quite serious here - it sounds like they took a lot of time and math to try and solve the problem as best they can (and yes, comps do change it dramatically.) - but if this isn't the answer, what is?

---

Q u o t e:
Completely legitimate gripe imo. Players in the 1300-1550 range definitely need more access to hateful quality gear, I can totally understand why you would be out of incentives to gain more points.

---

Surprised you came out and admitted this, to be honest. People have been complaining about the same issue since S4 first dropped the bottom out of the Arena bracket with PR on everything.

That said, is there any chance you are going to announce these changes Soon (tm)? My partner and I managed to claw our way to the Hateful chest for the first time ever, and I would hate to find out a mere week later that I could have saved those Arena points for Deadly gear.

Horrible, horrible idea. The only people that I've seen that actually liked this change are DKs in full dungeon gear who can get free rides w/ any unskilled holy paladin they meet up with. The old system was fine, I don't think anyone really minded coming across glad teams once in a while compared to this.

---

Q u o t e:


Shadoweric, to try to clarify what was happening under the hood here's a report of the games your team played. My following post comments as to what was going on with the system (it's too long to all post in this one). For reference, TR is your team's rating, MMR is your team's matchmaking rating (the "hidden rating"), OMMR is the opposing team's matchmaking "hidden" rating, TRC is your team rating change, MMRC is your team's average matchmaking rating change.

[pre]CREATED_TIME TR MMR RESULT OMMR TRC MMRC
1/24/2009 2:50 1434 1350 Lost 1378 -15 -72
1/24/2009 2:57 1419 1278 Lost 1240 -19 -83
1/24/2009 3:04 1400 1195 Lost 1093 -22 -83
1/24/2009 3:16 1378 1112 Lost 1313 -16 -34
2/5/2009 22:08 1362 1078 Lost 1154 -23 -49
2/5/2009 22:12 1339 1028 Lost 928 -28 -77
2/5/2009 22:18 1311 950 Won 842 1 40
2/5/2009 22:23 1312 991 Won 923 2 41
2/5/2009 22:28 1314 1032 Won 689 0 13
2/5/2009 22:32 1314 1046 Won 1109 6 60
2/5/2009 22:38 1320 1106 Lost 1166 -21 -38
2/5/2009 22:42 1299 1067 Lost 957 -27 -62
2/5/2009 22:48 1272 1004 Lost 1133 -21 -29
2/5/2009 22:52 1251 975 Won 932 3 38
2/5/2009 22:57 1254 1013 Won 1004 4 36
2/5/2009 23:32 1268 1167 Lost 1061 -21 -53
2/5/2009 23:39 1247 1114 Lost 1000 -24 -59
2/5/2009 23:45 1223 1055 Lost 1132 -17 -29
2/5/2009 23:48 1206 1025 Lost 1035 -22 -39
2/5/2009 23:55 1184 985 Won 1090 8 45
2/5/2009 23:58 1192 1031 Lost 1015 -20 -34
2/6/2009 0:04 1172 997 Won 1042 8 40

---

I don't know about anyone else but this makes a huge amount of sense to me, with the historical data you can see exactly what is going on and "justify" every point gain vs point lost.

I do realise that the MMR is a hidden rating, but just seeing how the system works in a mathematical format is very valuable. Is there any chance that at a later date we can view our historical data in such a format as is in your post or similar? Let the hidden rating stay hidden in game but I think many people would feel much better being able to check their MMR. Not only that the OMMR is just as valuable as it explains why and how your TR points were altered.

I imagine that the historic data would be kept in a database somewhere? Any chance to get a search engine up and running similar to the armoury to view this data?

And thanks Kalgan for the in depth description and example!

---

Q u o t e:


No, your record will be 50/50 against 1550'ish teams.

---

well if you started at 1500 and played 1500 teams with a 50/50 record why do you end up at 1300.
If you miraculously somehow managed to get back to 1500 then went 50/50 against 1500 teams again wouldn't that put you back at 1300?

Just because you start at 1500 - doesn't mean that you are playing 1500 rated teams, chances are that they are lower rated teams if you are losing points and if you win 50/50 against those level teams then your rating will fall to match THEIR rating as that is where the system sees you as belonging (if you are 50/50)

---

Q u o t e:


Shadoweric, to try to clarify what was happening under the hood here's a report of the games your team played. My following post comments as to what was going on with the system (it's too long to all post in this one). For reference, TR is your team's rating, MMR is your team's matchmaking rating (the "hidden rating"), OMMR is the opposing team's matchmaking "hidden" rating, TRC is your team rating change, MMRC is your team's average matchmaking rating change.

CREATED_TIME	TR	MMR	RESULT	OMMR	TRC	MMRC

1/24/2009 2:50	1434	1350	Lost	1378	-15	-72

1/24/2009 2:57	1419	1278	Lost	1240	-19	-83

1/24/2009 3:04	1400	1195	Lost	1093	-22	-83

1/24/2009 3:16	1378	1112	Lost	1313	-16	-34

2/5/2009 22:08	1362	1078	Lost	1154	-23	-49

2/5/2009 22:12	1339	1028	Lost	928	-28	-77

2/5/2009 22:18	1311	950	Won	842	1	40

2/5/2009 22:23	1312	991	Won	923	2	41

2/5/2009 22:28	1314	1032	Won	689	0	13

2/5/2009 22:32	1314	1046	Won	1109	6	60

2/5/2009 22:38	1320	1106	Lost	1166	-21	-38

2/5/2009 22:42	1299	1067	Lost	957	-27	-62

2/5/2009 22:48	1272	1004	Lost	1133	-21	-29

2/5/2009 22:52	1251	975	Won	932	3	38

2/5/2009 22:57	1254	1013	Won	1004	4	36

2/5/2009 23:32	1268	1167	Lost	1061	-21	-53

2/5/2009 23:39	1247	1114	Lost	1000	-24	-59

2/5/2009 23:45	1223	1055	Lost	1132	-17	-29

2/5/2009 23:48	1206	1025	Lost	1035	-22	-39

2/5/2009 23:55	1184	985	Won	1090	8	45

2/5/2009 23:58	1192	1031	Lost	1015	-20	-34

2/6/2009 0:04	1172	997	Won	1042	8	40

---

why didnt you show the other team rating and what their team rating change was???

---

Q u o t e:
Just because you start at 1500 - doesn't mean that you are playing 1500 rated teams, chances are that they are lower rated teams if you are losing points and if you win 50/50 against those level teams then your rating will fall to match THEIR rating as that is where the system sees you as belonging (if you are 50/50)

---

wouldn't that make sense that if you are 1500 you would play 1500????

Honestly, I don't see a benefit to this new system. Was it solely implemented for the benefit of low-ranked players who disliked having to face rerolling high-ranked teams? Because I doubt many of those low-ranked players are going to like this new system at all. Whether it puts you where you statistically "should be" quicker than the old system or not, it is demoralizing to gain very little from your wins and lose a lot from your losses. And this is going to be the normal situation for low ranked players, and even average players.

Is that going to make them want to compete? Were rerolling Gladiators really this big of an issue, post S3?

Is it fun to be winning more games than you lose and still going resolutely downwards? Was this really a wise point in time to be implementing such a system, considering the balance issues in PvP right now?

The rating system is way Overpowered.

Any chance of a nerf so we can get back to competing with each other?

The other teams TR is not accounted for in the math to work out YOUR ratings.

1) Arena points = currency for item purchasing
2) Personal rating = criteria check for item purchasing
3) Team rating = point calculation PER match
4) Hidden rating (MMR) = opponent selection

I know it's not just that simple but if you think of each individual rating and point in it's own right it becomes alot clearer.

1 - I don't think needs any explanation

2 - All we need to know is do we have a high enough PR to buy an item?

3 - All we need to know is that this is a visible calculation that we can track per game, it has no impact on the winning/losing oppositions team ( at least I don't think it does, which is why I believe it was left out of the table, as it is not required)

4 - This is the rating that selects our opposition. As far as I know, this is the only rating that is used as criteria for match making. Also uses the opponents ratings( Which is why I think it was included in the data)

This system is really going to screw things up if Patch 3.1 actually fixes class balance. Decent players with previously gimped PvP classes will be at low ratings, then suddenly have the capability to compete at a 1500+ level.

Problem is, they'll be at 1200 along with many other suddenly capable teams. Good luck getting a 3:1 win/loss ratio in that environment. Everyone will just go down togethor, no?

:(

---

Q u o t e:


Honestly, that appears to be the opposite of what's going on. The system is zeroing in on teams that they go 50/50 against. That's a good thing. Unfortunately for their team, the teams they've been going 50/50 against are way below their team rating, so when they win they don't go up much and when they lose they go down a lot.

---

I think this system would work better if your MMR actually started at 1200 or even 1000 or so. Then if you're truly not very good you'll continue to trend down.

If you win you might be able to trend upwards a little faster.

Personally though, I think you're making arenas more complicated than they need to be. It isn't like we're saving lives here.