Summarized issues voiced from ferals of late: Note all of these aren't all my personal concerns, more just a culmination of issues I've seen voiced yet unaddressed by a blue by the feral pve dps'ing community. The main gist here (for me personally atleast) is my desire to see some commentary on the growing amount of data compiled that suggests Feral PVE dps is lacking. I additionally have also added some other's concerns about our rotation's complexity (which though I while I find the "rotation" just fine, many don't, so here's for getting the aggregate of feral concerns at least heard.)

Growing disparity between feral dps and other melee hybrids, will this be addressed/does Blizz acknowledge there is a problem?
Cited source discussion:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14318780913&sid=1
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14578988811&sid=1

Cumbersome nature of feral dps "rotation"

Summarized change suggestions:

* Remove shred's positional restriction (much like mutilate was changed, rogues are raising hell for good reason already about their pve woes/discrepancies, but imagine if this antiquation still applied to mutilate AND they were also doing inferior dps, oh the flood of tears..)

* Acknowledgment that the feral rotation is too bloated and even at high gear/player skill levels doesn't reward the feral dps'er with competitive dps (as is the stated tendency of Blizzard where this discrepancy exists in class spec comparisons (recently BM vs MM or Survival hunters for example), therefore it needs attention similar to that promised to the comparably complex Affliction specced warlock rotation (as in Blizzard has said that the rotation will be looked at)


Suggestions that should be relatively easy to iterate that would additionally not impact PVP burst but would give much needed alleviation to PVE rotation issues:

*Have a main attack refresh a dot, buff or debuff

Possibilities here (these aren't intended to be one size fits all suggestions, it may be deemed more than 1 is necessary or something else not even listed is warranted, this is merely a recitation of suggestions I've seen, and I'm sure I've forgotten/overlooked some):

*Shred renews Mangle's duration
*Mangle,Shred,Rake or Rip renew Savage Roar
*Mangle or Shred renew Rake
*Rake's duration re-evaluated/increased
*Ferocious Bite have its current energy depletion mechanic re-evaluated/revised to comparable rogue finishers that do not penalize the player's energy pool in such a harsh fashion
(this is only mentioned as FB currently has little use at best in a PVE rotation given the very small window allowed given a lucky crit streak as to not crash a rotation)

There are no doubt more things I have overlooked, but the biggest thing I suppose I am looking for at this point is some sort of GC feedback on one or more of these concerns. Does Blizzard agree that feral is behind other melee hybrids, and if so are any changes planned to improve this situation? Does Blizzard acknowledge the feral rotation coupled with an asinine positional restriction and the added difficulty of playing a melee dps in general is too complex and needs to be toned down (especially in relation to the more effort/skill = greater reward ratio? The harder the spec is to play, GC has stated the tendancy is to reward that spec with higher dps. I think at this point ferals would be happy if we could 'just' do comparable dps to our counterparts, even if the rotation and positional concerns aren't changed in the slightest.) If this is indeed the case, then what if any plans are in the works to remedy the situation?

Knowing the plans might be alot to ask, but I know many of us would take MUCH solace from knowing that Blizzard is aware of these issues and atleast acknowledges our concerns. Posting many threads on the topic without any response at all is the most immediate concern for many of us, myself included. There aren't alot of feral dps'ers in proportion to the druid community at large (and the druid community itself is a minority compared to other classes, so double minority whammy there for us.) That said, we know it's hard to get our voices heard over the raucous yelling of the masses and any sort of feedback/direct acknowledgment is GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks for your continued hard work and dedication to interacting with the player base GC, it really has changed my outlook on how and if Blizzard listens to its customer's concerns (as in before the GC era I was convinced ferals atleast where entirely forgotten.) The BC state of ferals seemed to justify my outlook given how feral was back then. In contrast, while the wrath feral has taken tremendous strides to the olden days, there are still some glaring issues beleaguring this spec and none of us want to see us end up irrelevant again.

Furthermore note that removing the energy conversion from Ferocious Bite is, in my opinion, exactly what is needed to lower feral burst to reasonable levels PvP-wise.

The mechanic is currently being widely abused to get completely cheesy kills with 11-13k FB crits.

Way to chime in on a PVP concern when this is a purely PVE oriented thread. A feral can still amass energy and FB crit for alot in a PVP scenario, and consuming all our energy doesn't alleviate that concern (as in the energy conversion change would have no impact on this occurance.) The option to followup with more than a white attack in less than the 3-4 seconds (given that TF is on CD) that it would take to recover energy would be a slight sustained PVP damage increase, but wouldn't change what you are complaining about from occurring. FB still pales in comparison to other classes PVP burst (mages anyone? Buehler?) and isn't relevant to the discussion. Others are capable of chaining stuns and burst in concurrence, something feral cannot do. We can either
A: Burst and hope it one shots or gets the target close enough to death we with white attacks or our partner(s) can finish the target off before they cheeseball iceblock or bubble (many times a huge burst is the only way to get a pally down if bubble is available. Classes that can "reset" the fight are the ones on the top in pvp whereas those who cannot are at the bottom. Bubble = top ratings given the current tilt towards burst that will become increasingly irrelevant as resil increases and seasons push on. You want a class abil nerf when in 2 seasons you'll be lucky to crit at all on your target with resil mitigation. Crit dependant classes will begin to wane in favor of drain/outlast combos once the gear makes burst irrelevant.
B. Stun with maim then continue sustained dps in an effort to kill our target

You can't do both at once.

This will sound like im trolling but im not.... You wont get attention from gc with this post because feral dps isn't considered important. If you were a mage or something you might but your not.

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Q u o t e:
This will sound like im trolling but im not.... You wont get attention from gc with this post because feral dps isn't considered important. If you were a mage or something you might but your not.

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If you aren't trolling I'd love to know what trolling looks like..

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Q u o t e:
Way to chime in on a PVP concern when this is a purely PVE oriented thread. A feral can still amass energy and FB crit for alot in a PVP scenario, and consuming all our energy doesn't alleviate that concern (as in the energy conversion change would have no impact on this occurance.) The option to followup with more than a white attack in less than the 3-4 seconds (given that TF is on CD) that it would take to recover energy would be a slight sustained PVP damage increase, but wouldn't change what you are complaining about from occurring. FB still pales in comparison to other classes PVP burst (mages anyone? Buehler?) and isn't relevant to the discussion. Others are capable of chaining stuns and burst in concurrence, something feral cannot do. We can either
A: Burst and hope it one shots or gets the target close enough to death we with white attacks or our partner(s) can finish the target off before they cheeseball iceblock or bubble (many times a huge burst is the only way to get a pally down if bubble is available. Classes that can "reset" the fight are the ones on the top in pvp whereas those who cannot are at the bottom. Bubble = top ratings given the current tilt towards burst that will become increasingly irrelevant as resil increases and seasons push on. You want a class abil nerf when in 2 seasons you'll be lucky to crit at all on your target with resil mitigation. Crit dependant classes will begin to wane in favor of drain/outlast combos once the gear makes burst irrelevant.
B. Stun with maim then continue sustained dps in an effort to kill our target

You can't do both at once.

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Armory me before replying to me please, I know exactly how feral works PvP-wise, and Ferocious Bite is currently overpowered in that context.

I'm agreeing with you that the energy conversion mechanic needs to be removed from Ferocious Bite. That'd be a PvE buff, probably even a PvP buff for good ferals, but it would eliminate critting well-geared players for more than half their health bars, something that should never have been possible at all with an ability like FB.

Let me first say not all the suggestions I recited are my own (concerning FB for example, but merely a compilation of possible suggestions I've seen on the forums recently.)

That said, I will address FB in more depth. For clarification, if an energy bar is allowed to amass to full and all the energy is consumed on FB is does allow for tremendous burst in PVP. I won't deny that, but I submit that the nature of any imbalance this ability currently has will have diminishing returns given the nature of PVP gearing and seasonal progression and become less of the powerhouse ability than it currently is. If the energy conversion (above a set cost of say 35 or 40 energy) was removed the ability would have less burst capability (as it could do less max damage) and alleviate the concern cited about PVP use immediately (and conceivably allow it to *maybe* be used in a PVE rotation.) You don't address, however, the impact such a change would have later on down the road as a viable ability when gear has finally caught up to burst and that should be considered as well. Burst is a problem across the board in PVP right now, Blizz has acknowledged that. That said, my original post wasn't meant to address PVP at all and it's a different discussion entirely. I did armory you this go 'round (and grats on your arena ratings (esp 2v2) but look at your comp. Mage feral is a double dps burst combo. What I am saying is the imbalance currently present in any such burst combo will decrease in viability once more defensive oriented combos can actually live through your burst (which now not many can). Season 1 mirrored (to a less extreme extent) the way things are now, burst double dps teams rolled the arena. As seasons went on, drain/outlast combos became more prevalent because people could actually stay alive. I'm not saying you won't continue to do well into the later seasons, as your combo requires more than simple burst to be continually successful. I do suggest, however, that the importance of burst will be less 2 seasons from now than it is today. I think you'd agree with me on that.

As far as PVE is concerned, I listed the proposed FB change last as I think we have enough in a rotation and personally feel this change would have negligible impact on PVE and would do little to address the gist/concerns of the original post. I listed it anyway as I've seen it mentioned several times and was endeavoring to cite as many suggestions as I could recall, not necessarily reflect my own stance on each individual suggestion. You think FB is game-breaking in PVP, and perhaps it currently is. I'm not making that judgment call one way or another (and don't claim to be qualified to do so). I do, however, feel that its impact will be less later on when crit/damage reduction has matured (but that's just my opinion on the matter). Enough rambling, but this whole thing is an entirely different discussion and serves to detract from the original intent of my post.

I remember in WotLK beta GC acknowledged that Shred positional requirement was cumbersome but for some reason it was left the way it was because they weren't sure that it gimped feral so significantly that the issue was meaningful. GC let me assure you that on 3 drake Sartharion when every second counts and you're trying to drop a drake that is randomly flying around and changing direction, the requirement on Shred KILLS my dps. On Grobbulus who is constantly turning to spew acid, dps suffers. Essentially, any fight where the boss isn't willing to face the tank like a good boy, my dps drops in a way that no other dps class has to worry about. This is an especially ridiculous issue to have to worry about when juggling about 5 buffs and debuffs (I've given up trying to track my trinket procs and Berserking on my weapons because it rapidly becomes impossible to track that much information while avoiding cleave, void zones and the other actual fight mechanics.).

Another thing. Rip scales directly off of your attack power. If you have a 15001 ap rip ticking and your Aspect of God proc runs out and puts you at 15000 ap, you can't overwrite that 15001 ap rip until it runs out completely. This wouldn't be an issue except that in many cases in the two seconds that it takes you to realize that you have to wait out that Rip, you're now at about 55-65 energy MINIMUM and your choices are to waste energy on a non-optimal FB, renew SR (often not needed if you were planning to refresh rip), orrr Shred and burn combo points till you can RIp. Fix plox.

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Q u o t e:
You think it is game-breaking, and perhaps it currently is. I'm not making that judgment call one way or another (and don't claim to be qualified to do so). I do feel that its impact will be less later on when crit/damage reduction has matured (but that's just my opinion on the matter), but this whole thing is an entirely different discussion and serves to detract from the original intent of my post.

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It's not game-breaking, but it's stupid and should never have been in the game.

Resilience's effect on Ferocious Bite is largely mitigated by the fact that it'll have nearly 100% crit anyway because of Rend and Tear.

A 5-point FB without any excess energy or Savage Roar up does damage comparable to a fully-buffed Shred (bleed, mangle debuff, Savage Roar), and is nearly guaranteed to crit if there is a bleed up. It won't become a useless ability either way. Ask rogues if CB evisc is useless, because basically, ALL our FBs are CB'd.

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Q u o t e:


It's not game-breaking, but it's stupid and should never have been in the game.

Resilience's effect on Ferocious Bite is largely mitigated by the fact that it'll have nearly 100% crit anyway because of Rend and Tear.

A 5-point FB without any excess energy or Savage Roar up does damage comparable to a fully-buffed Shred (bleed, mangle debuff, Savage Roar), and is nearly guaranteed to crit if there is a bleed up. It won't become a useless ability either way. Ask rogues if CB evisc is useless, because basically, ALL our FBs are CB'd.

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Please don't derail our PvE dps discussion. I really want feedback on this.

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Q u o t e:


Please don't derail our PvE dps discussion. I really want feedback on this.

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And the FB conversion mechanic being changed would be a good thing for both PvE and PvP (from a balance/non-stupid game perspective PvP-wise).

That's all I'm sayin'

Get rid of it!

It's true, the effect of rend and tear will virtually ensure a crit of FB given the target is still bleeding. The interaction of rend and tear into FB's use in PVP is a new advent in wrath so might have not been fully considered given the FB mechanic is a much older mechanic. That said, resil also reduces the overall damage from crits if a crit is managed, no? FB may even then still merit re-evaluation from a PVP perspective from "being OP", but again, that's a discussion best suited in another thread.

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Q u o t e:
Way to chime in on a PVP concern when this is a purely PVE oriented thread. A feral can still amass energy and FB crit for alot in a PVP scenario, and consuming all our energy doesn't alleviate that concern (as in the energy conversion change would have no impact on this occurance.) The option to followup with more than a white attack in less than the 3-4 seconds (given that TF is on CD) that it would take to recover energy would be a slight sustained PVP damage increase, but wouldn't change what you are complaining about from occurring. FB still pales in comparison to other classes PVP burst (mages anyone? Buehler?) and isn't relevant to the discussion. Others are capable of chaining stuns and burst in concurrence, something feral cannot do. We can either
A: Burst and hope it one shots or gets the target close enough to death we with white attacks or our partner(s) can finish the target off before they cheeseball iceblock or bubble (many times a huge burst is the only way to get a pally down if bubble is available. Classes that can "reset" the fight are the ones on the top in pvp whereas those who cannot are at the bottom. Bubble = top ratings given the current tilt towards burst that will become increasingly irrelevant as resil increases and seasons push on. You want a class abil nerf when in 2 seasons you'll be lucky to crit at all on your target with resil mitigation. Crit dependant classes will begin to wane in favor of drain/outlast combos once the gear makes burst irrelevant.
B. Stun with maim then continue sustained dps in an effort to kill our target

You can't do both at once.

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This post was a good read and marginaly meeningful until the above was posted, you wanted feedback to address concerns and another feral druid chimed in and gave you his opinion and you basicly flamed his response, that is the point in wich I decided your post is meaningless.

DPS is both a PVP and a PVE concern if you are only addressing the PVE issue in your topic then perhaps you should have stated so in the title. If druids are preforming well in a PVP aspect but yet underperforming the PVE aspect of the game and you buff there dps then something will have to change on the PVP side to compensate.

The OP has some valid concerns and stated them very well. Can we get back to discussing that instead of FB?

/bump

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Q u o t e:
Cats might be falling behind other melee classes. This is something we are monitoring and discussing. There are some new glyphs coming in 3.1 which are more PvE-oriented and that might help some.

The cat rotation can be complicated, but at the moment we're okay with that. If you play a little sloppy with the rotation (e.g. ignoring Rake sometimes or not keeping Rip up 100%) you generally just suffer a dps loss rather than the whole thing collapsing down around you.

Swipe (Cat). Yum.

Ferocious Bite is on our list of "probably too bursty in PvP." It's at the bottom of the list, but we will still likely chill it out a little.

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Thanks for your response!

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Q u o t e:
Cats might be falling behind other melee classes. This is something we are monitoring and discussing. There are some new glyphs coming in 3.1 which are more PvE-oriented and that might help some.

The cat rotation can be complicated, but at the moment we're okay with that. If you play a little sloppy with the rotation (e.g. ignoring Rake sometimes or not keeping Rip up 100%) you generally just suffer a dps loss rather than the whole thing collapsing down around you.

Swipe (Cat). Yum.

Ferocious Bite is on our list of "probably too bursty in PvP." It's at the bottom of the list, but we will still likely chill it out a little.

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Many thanks. Do you think that our falling behind might be related to the fact that as a bleed/special heavy class we aren't seeing the benefits from armor pen/haste that other classes are?

::edit:: Swipe (Cat) is one of the best things that ever happened to me.

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Q u o t e:
Cats might be falling behind other melee classes. This is something we are monitoring and discussing. There are some new glyphs coming in 3.1 which are more PvE-oriented and that might help some.

The cat rotation can be complicated, but at the moment we're okay with that. If you play a little sloppy with the rotation (e.g. ignoring Rake sometimes or not keeping Rip up 100%) you generally just suffer a dps loss rather than the whole thing collapsing down around you.

Swipe (Cat). Yum.

Ferocious Bite is on our list of "probably too bursty in PvP." It's at the bottom of the list, but we will still likely chill it out a little.

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Learn2notpost in threads with GC in the title. Seriously...