*UPDATED numbers on Page 3, Post # 56

This is to discuss the problems of Killing Machine and the repercussions of "lowering our AE damage"

I just tested all possible weapon combinations besides slow/slow. All tests were done for 3 minutes in Blood Presence keeping icy talons up and 265 base haste rating. KM was used immediately after it proc'd.

Slow Main Hand / No Offhand - 6.00 PPM (18 total)
Slow Main Hand / Fast Offhand -5.73 PPM (17 total)

Fast Main Hand / No Offhand -7.98 PPM (23 total)
Fast Main Hand / Slow Offhand -3.61 PPM (10 total)

Fast Main Hand / Fast Offhand -4.26 PPM (13 total)

No Main Hand / Slow Offhand -2.00 PPM (6 total)
No Main Hand / Fast Offhand -3.73 PPM (11 total)

2H Weapon - -5.00 PPM (15 total) < The only one that seems correct

With that said I believe for Dual Wield the whole PPM concept is totally messed up. I believe it to be bugged because within the same combination test I noticed sometimes it would take 30 seconds for a single KM to proc and sometimes it would proc 3 times within 6 seconds.

I know 3 minutes isn't considered enough time to be conclusive but the whole idea of implementing PPM onto KM was that it is restricted to a maximum number. For instance if it's 10 PPM you should always get somewhat close to 10 PPM.

I know Blizzard said 5 PPM but it was never identified whether that was both 2-handed and Dual Wield, or just 2-handed. I believe that it should be 5 PPM per weapon. Whatever you guys intended it to be it clearly is not working correctly.

Killing Machine is vital to our DPS as we make our rotations around it so we can try to maximize its use with Howling Blasts and not Icy Touches. You add the CD back to Howling Blast, so please either fix Killing Machine procs to be more reliable and at around 10 PPM for Dual Wield, or up the DMG coefficient for non-crit Howling Blasts.

Oh and by the way just in case a blue does read this: It was stated that the CD was put back on Howling Blast because we did too much trash AE dmg. Now I just spam corpse explosion every 5 seconds and I increased from ~8% of the trash damage in my 25 man Naxx raid to 10%. So good job (sarcasm).

I understand Dual Wield was not originally intended for Death Knights and it was added for flavor. But, please do not gimp it to where it is no longer viable. Many people enjoy Dual Wield and it spreads out the weapon loots in raid so not half the people in the raid are rolling for the same 2H weapon.

And nerfing PvE because of QQer's from PvP is simply not acceptable. WoW is a PvE centered game.

-Please give your insight.

*UPDATED numbers on Page 3, Post # 56

Nothing? This is a problem when 2H gets more KM procs than my Slow / Fast combination. If you don't want DK's to dual wield just say so.

3 minutes is an insufficient sample size. Sorry.

That's not the point. After an entire 25 man naxx run so that's hours of test time my PPM is still around 3.5. Something is clearly not working as intended hence a bug. A friend of mine did the same. Using the add on proculas to track KM procs. In the same 25 man naxx run with his 2H he got around 5 PPM. I'm simply trying to raise awareness that something is wrong.

Working as intended is letting 2H which does more dmg with Frost Strike, Obliterate, Scourge Strike, and Plague Strike have more PPM on Killing Machine? Yeah seems really correct.

I understand 85% critical hits on HB was ridiculous. But my issue with this change is that it has no consistency to it, when our rotations have minimal time to spare until our death runes run out to do 3x Icy Touch on the final rotation. At most we can wait a couple seconds to see if KM will proc before using our HB. Like I said earlier, sometimes I get 3 KM procs within 6 secs and sometimes it takes 30 seconds to get a single KM proc. Hardly, what I would call proper game mechanics.

GC said he would like the HB CD to be removed to allow for a better flowing rotation but all they have done is gimp it. The damage isn't so bad, but after this inconsistent buggy KM change and the Gargoyle nerf (which was done for PvP reasons) single target DPS is down at least ~500 dps while hunters (survival) and mages (arcane) are doing more dps since patch.

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Q u o t e:
DW DKs are still doing alot of damage it's just now on par with 2h specs, maybe a little behind equal geared 2h frost.

I really don't see a problem. The change was to prevent insane proc rates so that you could hold 85% crit rates on all your frost attacks.

Working As Intended.

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It's working as intended that the PPM drops down below 5 when you equip a second weapon?

Stop trolling please.

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Q u o t e:


It's working as intended that the PPM drops down below 5 when you equip a second weapon?

Stop trolling please.

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Thank you. Finally somebody that understands. I understand the changes to KM, but it is NOT working correctly.

So I just did a 44 minute test checking KM procs to prove to you guys that believe it's working as intended that it is NOT.

Slow / Fast Procs: 135 PPM: 3.07
http://imgcash4.imageshack.us/img243/4977/kmprocslowfastxq0.th.jpg

2H Procs: 209 PPM: 4.71
http://imgcash2.imageshack.us/img177/5973/kmproc2hpy4.th.jpg

So clearly something is wrong.

The change was to normalize the proc rate between DW and 2H so your numbers seem to be right you have a few test where your a couple procs high and a few test where your a couple procs low. If you DW each weapon does not gain the 5 PPM of killing machine. That would than defeat there purpose of normalizing the talent.

So as you can see in your test when you didn't use a OH or MH your Proc chance stayed around the same.

One more thing to note when the change was first made on the PTR it was bugged and each weapon gained had a 5PPM to proc it. GC came out and said it was must be bugged. They fixed it to what you see now.

DW still does great damage so do some investigating before you start complaining that something is bugged.

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Q u o t e:
So I just did a 44 minute test checking KM procs to prove to you guys that believe it's working as intended that it is NOT.

Slow / Fast Procs: 135 PPM: 3.07
http://imgcash4.imageshack.us/img243/4977/kmprocslowfastxq0.th.jpg

2H Procs: 209 PPM: 4.71
http://imgcash2.imageshack.us/img177/5973/kmproc2hpy4.th.jpg

So clearly something is wrong.

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% proc rate based on weapon speed determined before haste
rng

I hear random number generators are random.

It doesn't proc off of off-hands any more, either; that part was changed late in the PTR cycle and is almost assuredly Working As Intended(R).

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Q u o t e:
The change was to normalize the proc rate between DW and 2H so your numbers seem to be right you have a few test where your a couple procs high and a few test where your a couple procs low. If you DW each weapon does not gain the 5 PPM of killing machine. That would than defeat there purpose of normalizing the talent.

So as you can see in your test when you didn't use a OH or MH your Proc chance stayed around the same.

One more thing to note when the change was first made on the PTR it was bugged and each weapon gained had a 5PPM to proc it. GC came out and said it was must be bugged. They fixed it to what you see now.

DW still does great damage so do some investigating before you start complaining that something is bugged.

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So your understanding of "the change ... to normalize the proc rate between DW and 2H" is that 2H procs 74 more times in the same amount of time?

And to the RNG crowd. I know it's random but when tests CONSISTENTLY show that 2H has at least 1.5 more procs per minute I hardly call that random. Given enough time outliers are just that outliers. I don't think the intended result of changing KM to PPM was to make 2H proc way more than DW.

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Q u o t e:


So your understanding of "the change ... to normalize the proc rate between DW and 2H" is that 2H procs 74 more times in the same amount of time?

And to the RNG crowd. I know it's random but when tests CONSISTENTLY show that 2H has at least 1.5 more procs per minute I hardly call that random. Given enough time outliers are just that outliers. I don't think the intended result of changing KM to PPM was to make 2H proc way more than DW.

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1.5 more Procs is not a huge difference. Your going to get discrepancies with a PPM talent or ability in this game. I see it all the time when i use SoC. I can throw on a 1 hander and average 1 or 2 less Procs than with a 2H.

PPM has been shown to on average favor 2H slightly but the gap is withen 1 or 2 not the huge difference that the old version had where the discrepancy was about double the amount of procs.

IMO buy looking at your data and what i have seen myself by working with other PPM abilities seems that it is working as intended.

If you can bring me Data where the difference is greater than 1 and at the most 2 than i think blizzard did a damn good job on balancing this talent.

DW is still very good DPS and you make the most of talents like BCB, Necrosis and Impurity. I think it is now slightly behind the top 2H spec but it by no meas is no longer viable.

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Q u o t e:


1.5 more Procs is not a huge difference. Your going to get discrepancies with a PPM talent or ability in this game. I see it all the time when i use SoC. I can throw on a 1 hander and average 1 or 2 less Procs than with a 2H.

PPM has been shown to on average favor 2H slightly but the gap is withen 1 or 2 not the huge difference that the old version had where the discrepancy was about double the amount of procs.

IMO buy looking at your data and what i have seen myself by working with other PPM abilities seems that it is working as intended.

If you can bring me Data where the difference is greater than 1 and at the most 2 than i think blizzard did a damn good job on balancing this talent.

DW is still very good DPS and you make the most of talents like BCB, Necrosis and Impurity. I think it is now slightly behind the top 2H spec but it by no meas is no longer viable.

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The issue though is, that literally, equipping one one handed weapon yields a higher proc rate than dual wielding right now, meaning for some reason, equipping an offhand is reducing the chance to proc.

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Q u o t e:


The issue though is, that literally, equipping one one handed weapon yields a higher proc rate than dual wielding right now, meaning for some reason, equipping an offhand is reducing the chance to proc.

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Precisely. The issue is that it makes no sense. Why does Fast / No Offhand provide extremely higher number than any other combination besides Slow / No Offhand. Something is not working as intended. If they intended for more procs when you punch the mob with your fist then okay. Assuming that is not what they intended something is wrong.

also, it's a marketing issue, as the KM changes were marketed as "still favoring DW, but not as grossly, and more viable for 2h and tanks" .. the issue being that it now seems to favor 2h specs significantly, to the point where 2h frost is incredibly powerful right now.

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Q u o t e:
also, it's a marketing issue, as the KM changes were marketed as "still favoring DW, but not as grossly, and more viable for 2h and tanks" .. the issue being that it now seems to favor 2h specs significantly, to the point where 2h frost is incredibly powerful right now.

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Thanks for that quote Lupia. I remember reading that. I'm still looking for Ghostcrawler's input on this because it is not "still favoring DW"

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Q u o t e:
We originally talked about letting the MH and OH both proc but at different rates (Windfury does something like this). Then we became convinced that dual wielding by DKs would probably sitll be good even without the OH procs from Killing Machine. Now it is just main hand procs at a frequency of 5 per minute.

PPM is a statistical average, so you will see a lot of variation unless you test for a long time. But we'll keep an eye on this thread and the talent itself to make sure.

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Can you comment on whether KM is or is not affected by haste values? That is, where does haste fall in the PPM formula for this talent? Does it only look at the base speed of the weapon, or does it factor in the current swing speed of the weapon (i.e. post haste) when calculating the chance to proc per swing?