wow, necro thread...

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Q u o t e:
wow, necro thread...

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It is... but the funny (and sad) thing is that the title is still true today three months later.

The latest SimulationCraft results for Hunters in 3.1 (in BiS T7 level gear) on a 5 minute Patchwerk style fight has:

06/14/51 as the highest Hunter DPS on 6421 dps.
15/51/05 as the 2nd highest on 6063 dps.
53/13/05 as the lowest on 5797 dps.

The first spec seems to be roughly even with a number of other pures.
The second one is in a position where it's about 5% ahead of Shadow Priests and some other hybrids.
The third puts them about on par with some hybrids.
Shamans are low in SimCraft. I'm unsure if this is correct or not (I work mostly on the Priest modules. Others work on Shamans)

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft/wiki/SampleOutputPTR

I dunno GC, I realize this thread is older but if you don't mind posting on the topic alright... This whole thread even though it's old still holds true. BM DPS is still low and so is MM, it's possible that may change in the next patch but I don't think so. I'm normally survival, which I am playing for the first time ever and have been since BM was nerfed. It's fun and I like it. You have to prioritize cool downs and such to get the big 5k+ dps numbers. You can probably slack a little and get 4k with good gear. But my guild runs with no ret pally and we have 4-5 raiding hunters so normally one of us goes BM for Ferocious Inspiration and we're all pretty geared and have all put up 5k+ numbers as SV but I don't think I've ever seen anyone break 4.5k as BM even on like patchwork. Instead of being top 5/10 with the other hunters they are normally around 12-15. Then MM.... we were having a discussion with our guild leader about who should spec to bring 10% AP, a blood DK or a MM hunter. So we had a couple hunters run MM and the DK go blood to show him what kind of DPS we have to sacrifice to bring Trueshot Aura. Needless to say we don't run with any MM hunters after that and we have a DK providing our 10% AP.

Even though you may think everyone is just following the spreadsheet and basing their whines on that, some people have tried the other specs and then don't touch them again after their experiences. Every post in your thread as came off sounding like "I know better than you, go out and try the other specs, and then talk to me." (Whether you meant it to sound that way for not.) The thing is though, even if only 1 person tried BM (which I'm sure have) and said "Hey guys, BM isn't really that bad, try it" more people would have. But no one is able to say that.

PS. I fear posting this because instead of buffing BM or MM, I would think the current trend would be to nerf SV in line with BM and MM, thus creating 3 nerfed (but equal!) specs.

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Q u o t e:
In order to lend any weight to statements such as "You nerfed our other 2 trees to oblivion," you are going to have to provide numbers comparing the 3 specs and they are going to have to be numbers that a reasonable amount of other players believe are reasonable numbers.

Real numbers are much more compelling than what spreadsheets estimate. Multiple bosses are more compelling that combat dummies.

Currently we are seeing a lot of "Someone smart posted some numbers showing Survival was the best dps spec, so I went that spec." We need to see a lot more players trying out different builds and strategies. Declarations that "I too adopted a cookie cutter spec" aren't as compelling when you are taking about potential and effective dps.

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You tell us to test on bosses, we do so, then tell us to test on multiple bosses, we do so. We do all the testing you require of us then give us some lame excuse saying that player generated numbers aren't as accurate as yours and dismiss them. Not trying to make this into a moderation thread but posting numbers gets noticed, but rarely entered into the equation.

What I find incredible is that you want players to pick specs that aren't held to be the best so that they get a better idea of what different specs can do, and yet still punish players for changing specs. You can't ask players to intentionally gimp their dps just to try out another spec and see if, in fact, the entire community happens to be wrong and they can get something out of the spec. Some people will do this, of course, because they have the time and motive and love to test things, but they are few and far between.

If you want to see less cookie cutter specs, you can't force players to go to a trainer, spend money, retalent/reglyph, and possibly even regem or regear in order to experiment with different specs. Dual specs won't fix this, you still have to go through all the same hassle to change one of your two specs. Cookie cutter specs have been essentially implemented by Blizzard, as the current game mechanics greatly favor not taking risks.

I'm getting an overall general vibe that hunters just aren't that much fun to play anymore for a lot of folks. This isn't strictly due to mediocre dps (which is a problem); but due to clunky combat mechanics, i.e. Survival, mana inefficiency - shot bloat, i.e. Marksman, and then stale ole underwhelming big'n'red Beast Mastery.

I know I'm feeling it.

So speaking as someone that played the entire game as a BM before WoTLK and have raided in an upper tier guild for a good amount of that time I can understand alot of the arguments that certain people are making. However part of the problem I have is that I'm very competitive and like to be close to the top of the performance of the guild so I was basically 'forced' to play SV spec because that is the one spec at highest tiers that can generate top level dps. I enjoyed immensely the symbiotic nature of BM with their pet and more then that the general rhythm you could generate with your shot sequence, specials, etc. They were all on timers that complimented one another. Now that I'm forced to play SV to reach that level of dps that I'm used to, the technical requirements I wouldn't say are any greater then they were with BM, its the utter lack of any groove you can get into playing the SV spec. I'm constantly having to watch counters that determine when a shot is ready and watch for the 'LnL' proc so I can alternate shots to maximize the use of ES. This completely removes me from enjoyment of the battle that I once experienced with BM because I was able to 'feel' when I needed to do something not be constantly watching the CD timers on 5 of my shots so I can spam the one is up unless its the LnL sequence where I need to alternate to maximize ES. The question becomes is playing a hunter in that context fun anymore? Worse then that, my DPS ranking on most boss battles is now relative to the number of times I'm lucky enough to get LnL to proc versus the old BM days when it was more a precision maximizing of hitting buttons at the precise moment they needed to in addition to weaving special shots in when free spaces opened up all to maximize my DPS in a fight. I think part of the heartburn is that at least in its current form SV is nowhere near the fun level that BM was and it hurts to feel that we should simply appreciate the harder technical requirements of SV.

I can certainly appreciate the desire to create diversity in spec selection and I don't mind learning new specs, but as the masters of the craft I judge you to be, I hope you never forget the need to making mastering any of those specs an enjoyable and ultimately rewarding and not tedious experience.

These are our forums. If you want to post here, you have to play by our rules. They are not negotiable.

Then you must be printing money or the forums are free.

So, 3 months later the predictions turned out to be true. SV is top and the only truly viable PVE spec, MM is ok but sub-par, and BM is just bad.

My prediction for 3.1: SV will stay the top DPS spec for PVE and the one all serious raid hunters use, MM will be for masochists and BM for those that can't give up their spirit beast.

ie. "we will fix it" I don't see happening in 3.1but hey I have been wrong before ;)

PS. the solution for BM was not to nerf it to hell, it was to make the rotation more difficult.

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I feel like I'm consistently having to watch rotations for procs and cooldowns that never link with each other rather than my environment.

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Hey, welcome to my world. That's EXACTLY what playing a lock has been like for years.

I am one not to post or express myself much. I have enjoy playing Wow as a beastmaster until this stupid patch. One thing is sure , after I've tried and tried , and spent countless time trying to maximized my dps, I've failed. I refuse to play what Blizzard will allow to give out an acceptable dps. I'm paying I should decide what I want to play.

I'm disgusted to the point that I know hate this stupid game. If I can't play my hunter specc the way I want giving a competitive dps with others in the same category then it is not worth losing my time with this game.

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Q u o t e:
So, 3 months later the predictions turned out to be true. SV is top and the only truly viable PVE spec, MM is ok but sub-par, and BM is just bad.

My prediction for 3.1: SV will stay the top DPS spec for PVE and the one all serious raid hunters use, MM will be for masochists and BM for those that can't give up their spirit beast.

ie. "we will fix it" I don't see happening in 3.1but hey I have been wrong before ;)

PS. the solution for BM was not to nerf it to hell, it was to make the rotation more difficult.



Hey, welcome to my world. That's EXACTLY what playing a lock has been like for years.

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Years? Ummm I'm sure you didn't play a lock in BC then during the lol spam Shadow Bolt days.

GC,

We here say that Devs don't know our class and you are idiots is because you make changes that do not make sense.

To try and help marks, you buff mana effeciency, a talent that we cannot spec into with any hope of doing good damage. On top of that our top tier talents are horrible. Wild Quiver, a 12% proc or ISS a 15% proc. Steady Shot is something that MM hunters use as just filler as we wait for our big shots to come up and hopefully crit to try and keep up with SV. Marks would probably be alot happier if you would get rid of those talents or merged them, freeing up talents so we could try effiency out. Or buff aim shot and move it down the tree a bit to replace those 2 terrible talents. Buff Combat Experience to help us again improve our personal DPS. Make it a 5 point talent, drop ISS and Wild Quiver.

According to EJ, the best DPS is going to require points in Unleashed Fury in the BM tree. By the title alone of the MM tree, we shouldn't be depending on pets that we have to micromange to keep up. Marksmenship is not about keeping pets alive and running, it is about increasing the personal dps of the hunter. You wont give pets resilance, a higher HP pool or anything like that to help our pets survive more due to PvP imbalances, yet you introduce a new Major glyph of Mend pet that would help us keep our pets up. The problem is that MM cannot give a major glyph spot for Improved Mend Pet. You reduce the cooldown of Feign Death through a minor glyph, since Chimera shot is a reduction in cooldown time, make that a minor glyph and maybe we can squeze in glyph of mend pet.

Maybe you could just Buff MM tree with more talents that help us and get rid of our dependence on pets. I personally play MM because it is closest to a ranger class, something that should be your next hero class.

Why dont you actually list what you want to see so we can get you to fix broken trees. If we are a pure dps class, then every spec played by a good player with same gear levels should beat hybrids according to you. But this is not the case. If we constantly post WWS, WMO parses for you will that show you that hybrids are OP'd right now?

If you want all of us to get mana effiency than merge the talent with Master Marksmen. That would make sense. We are master marksmen hunters, so we are able to deal damage with shots more effiecently that SV or BM do.

I had high hopes when you guys posted the thread asking for hunter suggestions before WotLK dropped, that you would actually pay attention to us. You didn't. We are more mana ineffecient than ever before.

I used to love playing my Hunter, BM was a challenge to play (and everyone saying you just had to stand there and hit steady constantly was doing a disservice to the potential of the spec), SV is so stupid easy to play it's mind numbing and there is no difference from BM other then the length of your main damage CD. Getting LnL procs? Easy, using ES right? Easy, having a sting up at all times? all 3 specs do this if you know what your doing.

Why is it the Spec I love and main reason I played Hunters should be craptastic in raids because it's "Easy"?? When your a min/maxer like me obviously you are going to avoid BM or MM when you see the other Hunters you used to compete with get blown away because they thought their old specs were still viable.

I've given up on the class and moved to MTing for my guild with my DK instead, I was the one in my guild WAY BACK in Gruul after TBC launch that started the BM Bandwagon when everyone thought it was a garbage spec and now it's back there again and I hate being forced to play a spec I don't enjoy just to stay viable as a PvE raider.

If it's "Ease of use" that makes it ass out then make it harder to play, give BM other options they have to use during a fight to stay viable and make it more challenging then and don't just cope out and leave it as a gimmick spec for leveling only which it is right now for anyone that wants to be worthwhile to their guild.

mages and warlocks pressed 1 button through all of bc, hunters actually had to time the macro. mages still press 1-2 buttons and hunters continue to get all the hate. It gets pretty tiring. Even if hunters had 50 buttons to press in order to do max dps people would just go LOLMACRO

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So, 3 months later the predictions turned out to be true. SV is top and the only truly viable PVE spec, MM is ok but sub-par, and BM is just bad.

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Don't give survival more credit then it has due. The SimCraft might say that 6400 is what is theoretically attainable, but not even the top hunters in the world, best in slot everything, are coming near that mark.

I disagree with the sentiment that hunters are no longer fun to play. I have great fun in BGs with survival. LnL + TnT may be a little OP but it sure is fun in wsg and av. As far as SV being mind numbingly easy to play, thats BS because every hunter spec is easy to play, hunters are easy to play as a class imo at least, thats why i rolled one.

i dont play a hunter, i dont like hunters and i will probaly never play a hunter, but, for the LOVE OF GOD buff MM or BM hunter specs so i dont have to walk in EVERY SINGLE BG and get hitted by 10 explosive shots at once, really, its not fun.