---

Q u o t e:


And pre-patch, BM -was- easy...I can see 3 macros though, not 2, and then you weren't doing optimal dps, only adequate dps.

With the patch, the nerf to Steady and the buff to Arcane, that's all changed.

---

That's what I meant by my response. NOW you require great skills to push the envelope on the spec (not that the best hunters weren't already doing this) But previously, you could afk, bone your GF, w/e and still do better dps than the other specs, who had to push their envelope just to compete with these kinds of (lazy) players.

---

Q u o t e:


That's what I meant by my response. NOW you require great skills to push the envelope on the spec (not that the best hunters weren't already doing this) But previously, you could afk, bone your GF, w/e and still do better dps than the other specs, who had to push their envelope just to compete with these kinds of (lazy) players.

---

1) That's all changed.

2) It wasn't the player's fault. It was a design flaw. The players shouldn't be punished for it. The -possibility- for MQSRDPS should still be there.

I don't really like macros that combine say steady shot and arcane shot. I've tried using one and I'd just rather manually hit steady x number of times, then when CD is up on arcane, hit the separate button for that. Then when serpent needs refreshing, hit a separate button for that (never macro'ed Serpent Sting, bad idea).

Now a macro for kill shot tied into steady shot isn't bad, but even then, I still have kill shot on my bar as its own button in case the macro glitches or w/e.

So back in TBC, I guess I was doing it wrong by not having everything macro'ed and only hitting one button.

Can something be done about MM's horrible mana efficiency?

Marks hunter's still don't have a way for actively gaining mana in our talents. Given that we now have to take Aimed Shot to keep up with our other trees, our horrid mana efficiency plunged even further. Unlike BM's having to worry about 1 large cost shot (Aimed), and being able to regain 1% mana every time the pet crits, or Survival's regain 40% of your shot cost when it crits + replenishment, Marks has a 5 pt talent for 10% lowered cost, another 5 pt talent that only reduces the cost on steady and a 3 pt talent that relies on steady, which Marks was forced to downgrade as the last shot in prioritizing, to get an benefit in efficiency.

The only break that it does get is from Rapid Recouperation, where it only applies in a solo setting, not a group/raid setting, as its based off killing blows.

Sure we have Aspect of the Viper, but if you don't have any replenishment on raids, your DPS tanks as you keep going into Viper continuously because the only talent that is supposed to help with mana efficiency costs 5 points for only 10%.

---

Q u o t e:
I'm sorry, but you're a complete moron. How did you get 150 from 50? Are you even reading what you're typing. Just get off this thread already. You're not proving anything besides how idiotic you are. Go play your SV and be happy, just stay out of this thread. All your arguments are flawed and terrible, so kindly gtfo.

And you even said its the top 150 hunters in the world, which means that they had to surpass hundreds of other hunters. (Yes, I know this has been pointed out, but Elk is dumb and can't read, so things have to be re-iterated.) You should just rename your character to GCFanboi.

---

I looked at the data posted which showed top 10 hunters for each of 16 different bosses. I assumed quite reasonably that there would be some overlap on the those 16, Top-10 lists. Oops, my bad. There was less overlap than I expected. Apparently that is a hanging offense. I'm sorry.

But to base your understanding of all 1 Million+ hunters in the game (www.warcraftrealms.com) on what you see on a self-reported website that only shows you 0.0001% of hunters in the game is insane.

As far as being a "GCFanboi" you couldn't be farther off the mark. I think the nerfs were way over board and not necessary. But my personal opinion and what I would do for the hunter class is immaterial.

The TL:DR version of what I was trying to say in my original post. DPS charts are good. GC likes to see them and the discussions that come from the community analyzing the data. He's said as much on the forums. But the large-sample and population statistics are the MOST important numbers Blizzard looks at. Simple as that.

Oh, and Kiera. Is this

---

Q u o t e:
You should just rename your character to GCFanboi.

---

an ad hominem attack? You were right, I was using an incorrect defintion earlier... just want to make sure I get it right :)

---

Q u o t e:
Oh, and Kiera. Is this

---

Q u o t e:

You should just rename your character to GCFanboi.

---

an ad hominem attack? You were right, I was using an incorrect defintion earlier... just want to make sure I get it right :)

---

Well, it depends on the usage. Saying "You are wrong because you're a GCFanboi" would be an ad hominem attack. Saying "You're wrong because of X, Y, and Z, and also, you're a GCFanboi" isn't -- it's just an insult.

---

Q u o t e:

---

Q u o t e:
an ad hominem attack? You were right, I was using an incorrect defintion earlier... just want to make sure I get it right :)

---

Well, it depends on the usage. Saying "You are wrong because you're a GCFanboi" would be an ad hominem attack. Saying "You're wrong because of X, Y, and Z, and also, you're a GCFanboi" isn't -- it's just an insult.

---

Ok, thanks... The problem is i was using common vernacular as opposed to the more precise philosophical definition.

I can give you some numbers GC:
This with a cat on all 3 specs
BM: 1900 DPS
MM 2400-2600 DPS
SV 3000-3100 DPS

You can check my gear and range weapon on armory.
These tests were doen on a test dummy level 80 in Org.
No BM, no rapid fire, no trinkets that had to be activated were used.
Full tree specs were used meaning: The deepest point was used in each tree ex Exotic pets, Chimera shot, and Explosive shot.

No complaints from me just the numbers you asked for.

---

Q u o t e:


I looked at the data posted which showed top 10 hunters for each of 16 different bosses. I assumed quite reasonably that there would be some overlap on the those 16, Top-10 lists. Oops, my bad. There was less overlap than I expected. Apparently that is a hanging offense. I'm sorry.

But to base your understanding of all 1 Million+ hunters in the game (www.warcraftrealms.com) on what you see on a self-reported website that only shows you 0.0001% of hunters in the game is insane.

As far as being a "GCFanboi" you couldn't be farther off the mark. I think the nerfs were way over board and not necessary. But my personal opinion and what I would do for the hunter class is immaterial.

The TL:DR version of what I was trying to say in my original post. DPS charts are good. GC likes to see them and the discussions that come from the community analyzing the data. He's said as much on the forums. But the large-sample and population statistics are the MOST important numbers Blizzard looks at. Simple as that.

---

This sample is only a fraction of the hunters being tracked through the client that have managed to make it to the top, this was mentioned before several times. Even if there were 10 MM Hunters and 10 BM Hunters in that list (1000% more), it would still be ridiculously skewed. I am certain that there is more than one best in slot/best gem/best enchant MM hunter and BM hunter currently being tracked, and if they were able to obtain better numbers than the SV spec'd hunters, they would be on the list. I don't know of another indicator that may illustrate things as clearly as WoWMeterOnline.com, but if you do know of a better source for data, please share it with us.

Just to throw out some more facts for you, here's a pic of the dps meter after a 10-man VoA I was on earlier today: http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4809/wowscrnshot012709181222wi2.jpg

Here's the armory of the other hunter in the raid: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Winterhoof&n=Johama (He used a raptor)

Here's mine: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Winterhoof&n=Nuline (I was using a cat)

---

Q u o t e:
Get the convo back on track. Elk stop posting. You're completely derailing the thread with your banter.

Let's get some more WWS reports.

---

What would this serve? GC already made his point. You're throwing numbers without any sense of what the numbers really mean.

1. Gear level.

2. Skill level (this is so difficult to pin down, so the only thing you can do to figure this out is having 10 slots filled with BM hunters, same specs, same pets, same gear, same enchants, same ammo, same gems, etc. and see where each BM hunter falls on the DPS line ... in a perfect world, they should all be within 5% of the "median" ... but I'm willing to bet $100 that will never be the case)

3. Other factors. Latency. PC can't handle WoW.Guy just came back from having a root canal job and is feeling crappy. Girl just got her period. Someones pet bugged out. Someone accidentally was using his farming arrows instead of his raiding ones. etc. How the #!@# do you know what is going on? You don't. THAT'S THE GODDAMN POINT

---

Q u o t e:
We talked about it a great deal today and agreed that we probably over-nerfed BM. Marks is in a good spot and Survival might be too high once we look at the changes we are making to all other classes.

---

Thanks. :-)

Although some hunters disagree, I personally agree that Steady Shot is good as it is -- it's been nerfed enough that people are using Arcane and Aimed in their rotations, which is good.

I also think that Kindred Spirits and Serpent's Swiftness are good places to buff. A suggestion I've read before is to remove the bonus to the hunter's attack speed on SS and replace it with an attack power bonus, which could both buff BM hunters and make Haste useful to them.

Cooleo. I haven't gotten around to leveling this guy yet but I was a bit worried my awesome BM pets wouldn't be very good at 80.

---

Q u o t e:
We talked about it a great deal today and agreed that we probably over-nerfed BM. Marks is in a good spot and Survival might be too high once we look at the changes we are making to all other classes.

Our plan is to buff BM before Ulduar, but I can't give you a timetable more detailed than that, and things could change for any number of reasons. We are unlikely to touch Steady Shot for the reasons I have mentioned before. We are more likely to look at Kindred Spirits and Serpents Swiftness again.

Again, huge caveats: Predicting changes we are discussing making but haven't made yet is fraught with peril. I only wanted to address this issue because it caused a lot of consternation in the community.

I don't mind admitting when we make a mistake in the hope that it builds our credibility in the community. This was one. It won't be the last. :)

---

Thank you GC.

GC what about say taking the beast within and adding into bw as one skill while adding a new shot for bm like the other two specs say "Beast Rage shot: 1064dmg and makes the pet do 50% for 2hits or something like this. That way every hunter spec would have a shot of its own.

I really like the idea of changing Serpent's Swiftness to remove the attack speed bonus for the Hunter and replacing it with something else that increases damage in another way (or by buffing a couple of other talents, like Cobra Strikes, to make them more desirable). Right now Haste is a nearly useless stat to a BM Hunter, which is a shame since it is very good for Marks and Survival and some players (like me) would enjoy being able to switch specs without acquiring a differently itemized suit of gear.

That's a bit tricky, of course. Serpent's Swiftness is probably the best DPS talent in the entire tree, and messing with it will naturally make many Hunters pretty nervous. I generally like the idea of improving some of the marginal talents deep in the tree (Invigoration is a good candidate for this) to make specs with a heavier focus on BM more popular.

Possible options: change Invigoration to chance on pet hit, rather than crit, to improve it in PvP where resilience makes pet crits few and far between. Add an additional effect, like a temporary boost to crit chance or AP or something, along with the mana return. You could do something a bit more interesting too, like give it a chance to cause your attacks to pierce 100% of armor for a few seconds; this would give BM Hunters an opportunity to see some bigger numbers occasionally, and give them a useful talent against heavily armored classes that MM and Survival get around by doing Nature / Fire damage.

Really I think BM's biggest problem is that its effectiveness is sometimes governed more by encounter design than the player's abilities. There are some encounters (Heigan, Sarth, especially with extra drakes up) where keeping the pet alive is incredibly difficult. Others (Thaddius, Malygos) aren't really threatening to the pet, but they provide major DPS buffs that the pet doesn't get to use, and so the Hunter's overall damage suffers.

Thanks for the response. Its all most of u want.....someone to at least say "we hear you."