World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> [Hunter] BM and MM are broken.

Nerzhan

< Abandoned by Sanity >

Dethecus

341. Re: [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 23/01/2009 21:24:30 PST

First off, I would like to say that "Trap Dancing" is not an increase in dps from what I have seen. I get plenty of LnL procs, even with the internal cd. I would like to see a change to sniper training (because alot of the fights contradict it), but I find it very useful in many fights as well.

Regarding GC's comments about BM's easiness, I agree. I was MM pre-patch because I find the spec too dull. I also take pleasure in seeing my character do good damage, not my semi competent pet. However, every DPS class is still fairly easy (not compared to other roles, but just easy in general).

Still, as a poster has stated before, I would like to have the DPS versatility of DK's (who happen to be a hybrid class). What I mean by this is that hybrid builds should exist (moving Chimera shot and ExS to 31/41 pointers would make this easier) along with every tree being a bit more viable.

Ramala

< Serious Casual >

Mal'Ganis

344. Re: [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 23/01/2009 21:26:56 PST

Q u o t e:
Miscomm. Assassination is doing too much damage relative to other rogues. Rogues as a whole are still too low in PvE and we have plans to bring them up.

Somebody please get this man a HAT parse.

What would you have me do?

Teaakius

< Atmosphere >

Gilneas

346. Re: [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 23/01/2009 21:35:50 PST

Q u o t e:
For those saying that BM is the more complicated spec and "you actually have to worry about managing your pet"- I just don't understand the argument. All hunters need to manage their pets, whether it's doing 15% or 50% of their dps. It doesn't suddenly become easier to keep your pet out of the flames on Sarth just because it's doing less damage.

Let me think how I can explain this to everyone...imagine if, as a MM hunter, seeing your pet die means no more Chimera shots till you brought him back to life...or as a SV, seeing your pet die means no more Explosives till you rez your pet. That's what keeping a pet alive MEANS to a BM hunter...whereas losing a pet for a MM/SV hunter is like losing the ability to Aimed shot. It'll hurt, yes...but it doesn't hurt nearly as much.

Soreena

< Narcoleptic Insomnia… >

Silvermoon

347. I found Zenmluk 23/01/2009 21:38:50 PST

Hey Bliz...

I found Zemluk (the forum troll) and I know where he's hiding. I'd like to know what kind of reward I can get for turning his carcus in. 10k gold and I'll capture him for you, 5k and I'll give you information on his whereabouts.

~ Sore ~

Kolex

< Knight Riders >

Sentinels

348. Re: [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 23/01/2009 21:39:14 PST

Q u o t e:
Also BMs 51 point talent is a joke. If you want competent raiders to use it change it to make it worthwhile. Otherwise stop trying to force a terrible talent down our throats.

I disagree. I think its a perfect talent point for BM hunters. It lets to tame pets MM and SV hunters cant and also lets you make your pet stronger with the extra talent points :) GC said that he does not want our 51 point talents to define our trees, but I see where he fails on that. He made Explosive shot the SV class defining DPS tool. GC buffed Explosive shot to buff the whole SV tree. I find that contrary to his own ideas and design.

If Blizzard plans on keeping Hunters broken. Then I'm out. I know they don't care. But I am tired of playing an unfair game and waiting for the broken "Wait and See" promises.

Harkhonen

< Steel Rain >

Warsong

349. Re: [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 23/01/2009 21:40:28 PST

Q u o t e:

Let me think how I can explain this to everyone...imagine if, as a MM hunter, seeing your pet die means no more Chimera shots till you brought him back to life...or as a SV, seeing your pet die means no more Explosives till you rez your pet. That's what keeping a pet alive MEANS to a BM hunter...whereas losing a pet for a MM/SV hunter is like losing the ability to Aimed shot. It'll hurt, yes...but it doesn't hurt nearly as much.

^^

This. Very much this.

Except that once your pet dies you ALSO lose your Trueshot aura or your Replenishment help to the raid.

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

350. Re: [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 23/01/2009 21:42:47 PST

Q u o t e:
For those saying that BM is the more complicated spec and "you actually have to worry about managing your pet"- I just don't understand the argument. All hunters need to manage their pets, whether it's doing 15% or 50% of their dps. It doesn't suddenly become easier to keep your pet out of the flames on Sarth just because it's doing less damage.

What I DO know about BM is that I dinged 80, did Sarth in dungeon blues withing 30 minutes and topped the damage charts. BM was easy to hit great damage with crappy gear- maybe SV isn't quite like that. If that's the case, I can certainly understand the change. Maybe it isn't so much about shot rotations but about that hunter in crappy gear out damaging everyone in Vault 25 the day he dings 80. /shrug- who knows? I'm just throwing stuff out there.

I really do wish BM wasn't nerfed so hard. It's really frustrating a lot of the hunters in my guild who I taught to play the spec and worked hard to gear for it. I'm sure they'll live- but they sure aren't having fun right now.

Personally, I'm looking forward to SV- it's certainly been fun in BGs. I can't wait to try arena, and tomorrow will be my first Naxx with the spec. Should be a good time.

My real complaint here is that per-nerf we were told that hunter damage was too high, so that was the reason for the changes. Now we are hearing that BM is too easy, and that is why it was changed. My guess is that the reasons were more nuanced than were expressed in GCs earlier posts, but I think a lot of heartache and frustration could have been alleviated by a statement like "we believe BM is too easy to get great damage with, so we want to tone it down". At least we'd have understood why we were seeing the numbers we were in the spreadsheets and PTR and GC was saying they were fine.

Elwynnia said just about everything I was trying to say, probably more eloquently.

Saying “BM is too easy to get great damage with” may be a good way to explain it. I don’t honestly believe every BM hunter raided while eating a sandwich. But the problem was you could do that, and while better BM hunters might be out dpsing you, you were still doing really high dps. Put another way, BM played badly could beat out a lot of other classes practically with SS and the pet alone.

We appreciate the data and other feedback. We do want to give the community a little more time to really try to max their dps with various specs and rotations and for us to make sure all the major bugs shake out. As many of you pointed out, the hunter class does have a lot going on and we don't think everyone is going to be operating near their max potential with all ofthe changes after less than a week of raiding and Arenas turned off half the time. If after that time BM continues to lag behind, we’ll buff it. We just don’t want to do it in such a way that sends every hunter stampeding back to that spec. If that happens, I will have no problem admitting we over-nerfed BM.

Sadly, we will continue to ban players who just come here to vent until they figure out not to do that. :(

Q u o t e:
Somebody please get this man a HAT parse.

Honor Among Thieves had a bug, which every rogue knew. The only way it can do amazing damage now is by overstacking a group with hunter pets. :) Mutilate remains the dominant spec, but we have plans to get them all up to speed.

[ Post edited by Ghostcrawler ]

Teaakius

< Atmosphere >

Gilneas

352. Re: [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 23/01/2009 21:51:38 PST

Q u o t e:

I disagree. I think its a perfect talent point for BM hunters. It lets to tame pets MM and SV hunters cant and also lets you make your pet stronger with the extra talent points :) GC said that he does not want our 51 point talents to define our trees, but I see where he fails on that. He made Explosive shot the SV class defining DPS tool. GC buffed Explosive shot to buff the whole SV tree. I find that contrary to his own ideas and design.

The problem is taking the 51 point BM talent is a noticeable DPS loss vs using a normal pet and using that point elsewhere...

No, we're not asking for Exotics to do superior DPS...but the 51st point should not cause a DPS loss vs using a tier 3 MM talent. Making that 51st talent increase DPS either via another tier in the pet talent trees, a flat DPS increase to the hunter (preferred) or his pet (regardless if it's exotic or not), or increase the hunter-to-pet stat ratios have been the best ideas I've seen posted. GC has suggested the first is the most likely to be implemented.

Sumdrood

Sisters of Elune

353. Re: [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 23/01/2009 21:52:36 PST

Q u o t e:
If after that time BM continues to lag behind, we’ll buff it. We just don’t want to do it in such a way that sends every hunter stampeding back to that spec. If that happens, I will have no problem admitting we over-nerfed BM.

I hope this means Survival is the benchmark you are aiming for the other specs, and you won't nerf Explosive Shot. I really love Survival and am happy to see it finally viable for the first time in pve and pvp.

Elwynnia

< Ad Idem >

Doomhammer

354. Re: [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 23/01/2009 21:53:37 PST

Q u o t e:

Let me think how I can explain this to everyone...imagine if, as a MM hunter, seeing your pet die means no more Chimera shots till you brought him back to life...or as a SV, seeing your pet die means no more Explosives till you rez your pet. That's what keeping a pet alive MEANS to a BM hunter...whereas losing a pet for a MM/SV hunter is like losing the ability to Aimed shot. It'll hurt, yes...but it doesn't hurt nearly as much.

I understand this completely- been playing BM for a while now. My point was, whether you are losing half your damage or 15% of your damage, you still have to put in the same effort to do your best. It's more important for a BM hunter to keep his pet alive- sure, but any good hunter is going to be putting the same effort into pet management to do maximum damage.

Thus, pet management is not more complicated for BM- it's just more meaningful.

Rome did not create a great empire by going to meetings- they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

Stuffnthings

< PvP Is Not Dead >

Kel'Thuzad

357. Re: [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 23/01/2009 21:55:46 PST

Yes GC i totally agree with, while all us PVP hunters were BM we hated it, it was just target----->DPS----> win no thinking involved. Easy specs should NOT be the most viable, they shouldn't be terrible but not above the harder spec. Now..... while i agree with this idea..... why isnt it used across all classes? Arcane mages are completely LOL in my opion pom pyro ab ab ab ab is not that hard.... just my 2 cents though, there could be something i dont see.... but i see mages that use IB simply to wait for the AB CD. 1 ability much?

Milman

Mug'thol

359. Re: [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 23/01/2009 21:58:51 PST

Q u o t e:

I think some of my Ulduar comments have been taken out of context or misunderstood. We are making some changes to hunters. Some of them are pretty cool. We will have to re balance many of the attacks at that time. For example, we are likely to add additional pet talents that increase dps so that the 4 bonus points from BM 51 will inflate player dps overall.

Here lies the problem, it's safe to assume the recent changes are related to whatever super secret plan you have in store for Ulduar. But we cant see how its related, a peek through the keyhole would have gone a long way in preventing threads like this. After all with most hunters being BM specced for so long you guys basically just kicked the entire hunter community in the teeth with the latest patch, the reaction has been pretty tame vs the amount of people it angered.
No matter what you write on here GC nobody can see past what is put infront of them when they log in, well im sure alot of people are capable of looking forward but the only information we get is smoke and mirrors. Broken promises suck but the lines of communication between dev's and players are a one way street, i applaud you for trying to keep the peace but its an impossible job.

Is there somewhere i can safely post logs without it getting lost in a sea of trolls? How do i know someone could be bothered reading through 6 pages of nonsense to reach a great piece of information? The system sucks, i'd get the same feedback if i wrote my concerns on paper, put it in a bottle and lobbed it into the Atlantic.

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