World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> [Hunter] BM and MM are broken.

Bananahammoc

< Flawless Victory >

Blackwing Lair

41. Re: @Devs. [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 01/23/2009 10:45:20 AM PST

Q u o t e:
From my experience, and spending over 500 gold testing all three trees after the patch, I'd say its reasonably even. I found the difference in DPS to only be around 600 between the worst spec (BM) and the best spec (Surv).

Lol, I bet you were using the same shot rotation or something similar for all of them too. The fact of the matter is that a quick dummy test doesn't predict how a hunter will do in a long fight and with full raid buffs. You should spend some time browsing the charts people are posting on the hunter forums and on EJ. BM is destroyed, MM is gimped, and Survival is the only viable raid spec (and is clunky and less fun than the other two).

Fannta

Gorgonnash

42. Re: @Devs. [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 01/23/2009 10:51:16 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Survival isn't the most popular spec. It never was pre patch. Specing isn't a fricken popularity contest. Numbers were crunched post-patch and during PTR Proving Surv is the best and most competitive spec on Live.

This is fact. BM and MM do lower than 10% of what SV can do. I don't know where you're getting your info sir, but I'm been on the EJ forums for quite a number of months. I've seen the numbers, and they proved correct on live.

SV is the superior spec, not the most popular.

this^ x infinity

Noklars

< Shining Force >

Mal'Ganis

43. Re: @Devs. [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 01/23/2009 10:54:52 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Gluth from two weeks ago:
http://wowwebstats.com/3ryyt1wj3hsuw?s=225855-238339
3288 DPS
50/21 with a Scorpid, yes the overpowered build and pet

Gluth from last night:
http://wowwebstats.com/xcgxm1ouvx5og?s=225251-275546
3186 DPS
53/11/7 build with a Devilsaur, what I expect Blizzard was thinking was the optimal build.

So my DPS went down by only a little bit, and I was still pretty high on the DPS charts, right? Sure, but (and yes, I am stroking my e-peen a bit) I always strive to do the best DPS possible, and I did better or equivalent DPS in a 10 man raid than a fully buffed 25 man raid!

Your two weeks ago Gluth was a 10 man where you also only did 3700 dps on pathwerk. You did that without full raid buffs and no replenishment.

The one you posted from this week is a 25 man. Yet you did about the same dps with full raid buffs and replenishment as you did in a 10 man.

Yeah, your dps only went down a little. Way to stroke your epeen...

Noklars

< Shining Force >

Mal'Ganis

44. Re: @Devs. [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 01/23/2009 10:56:58 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Survival isn't the most popular spec. It never was pre patch. Specing isn't a fricken popularity contest. Numbers were crunched post-patch and during PTR Proving Surv is the best and most competitive spec on Live.

This is fact. BM and MM do lower than 10% of what SV can do. I don't know where you're getting your info sir, but I'm been on the EJ forums for quite a number of months. I've seen the numbers, and they proved correct on live.

SV is the superior spec, not the most popular.

The most popular build is the highest dps build. In vanilla it was Surv with a 21/30 build. In BC BM got buffed so BM was the popular build. Now Surv is tops again so it will become the popular build. I'm still waiting for MM to have it's turn. :(

Bananahammoc

< Flawless Victory >

Blackwing Lair

45. Re: @Devs. [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 01/23/2009 10:59:04 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Your two weeks ago Gluth was a 10 man where you also only did 3700 dps on pathwerk. You did that without full raid buffs and no replenishment.

The one you posted from this week is a 25 man. Yet you did about the same dps with full raid buffs and replenishment as you did in a 10 man.

Good catch there, Noklars:)

If anything, this proves the poster completely wrong. I have yet to see any real evidence that BM is not destroyed, though there's plenty of evidence to show the contrary.

Q u o t e:
I'm still waiting for MM to have it's turn. :(

MM was great for a short time in BC. I always liked playing MM the best, too.

[ Post edited by Bananahammoc ]

Noklars

< Shining Force >

Mal'Ganis

46. Re: @Devs. [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 01/23/2009 11:04:17 AM PST

Q u o t e:

Good catch there, Noklars:)

If anything, this proves the poster completely wrong. I have yet to see any real evidence that BM is not destroyed, though there's plenty of evidence to show the contrary.

I always think something is fishy when I did more dps as MM than the BM hunter.

Q u o t e:

MM was great for a short time in BC. I always liked playing MM the best, too.

MM was the only viable raiding spec when BC first came out until BM got buffed in 2.1. It wasn't great, the shot weaving sucked and hunters that had any form of latency were at the bottom of the DPS charts due to clipping.

Kiyoka

< Simple >

Auchindoun

47. Re: @Devs. [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 01/23/2009 11:09:19 AM PST

Great post Bananahammoc. There is no excuse for the Devs to make BM into a no-longer raid viable spec and force all (competent) raiding Hunters into speccing Survival.

Kiyoka

< Simple >

Auchindoun

49. Re: @Devs. [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 01/23/2009 11:21:13 AM PST

Q u o t e:

blizz screwed up.

Dahlstrom

< Gnome Cartel >

Andorhal

50. Re: @Devs. [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 01/23/2009 11:25:18 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Survival isn't the most popular spec. It never was pre patch. Specing isn't a fricken popularity contest. Numbers were crunched post-patch and during PTR Proving Surv is the best and most competitive spec on Live.

This is fact. BM and MM do lower than 10% of what SV can do. I don't know where you're getting your info sir, but I'm been on the EJ forums for quite a number of months. I've seen the numbers, and they proved correct on live.

SV is the superior spec, not the most popular.

You're acting as if the two aren't related. The majority of the good hunters I've seen on my server were BM before the batch, and have now switched to Survival. Its popular because it does indeed output the highest damage of the three.

If one spec is found to do more damage than the others, it becomes the most popular. Just look at the history of this class. It not like you have special inside info because you look at EJ, most people have used that spreadsheet.

Noklars

< Shining Force >

Mal'Ganis

51. Re: @Devs. [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 01/23/2009 11:27:41 AM PST

Q u o t e:

If one spec is found to do more damage than the others, it becomes the most popular. Just look at the history of this class.

True for every dps build in PvP and PvE. It's called Balance.

Dahlstrom

< Gnome Cartel >

Andorhal

52. Re: @Devs. [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 01/23/2009 11:32:04 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Survival isn't the most popular spec. It never was pre patch. Specing isn't a fricken popularity contest. Numbers were crunched post-patch and during PTR Proving Surv is the best and most competitive spec on Live.

This is fact. BM and MM do lower than 10% of what SV can do. I don't know where you're getting your info sir, but I'm been on the EJ forums for quite a number of months. I've seen the numbers, and they proved correct on live.

SV is the superior spec, not the most popular.

You're acting as if the two aren't related. The majority of the good hunters I've seen on my server were BM before the batch, and have now switched to Survival. Its popular because it does indeed output the highest damage of the three.

If one spec is found to do more damage than the others, it becomes the most popular. Just look at the history of this class. Its not like you have special inside info because you read the EJ forums...most good hunters have used that spreadsheet at some point.

Dahlstrom

< Gnome Cartel >

Andorhal

53. Re: @Devs. [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 01/23/2009 11:35:13 AM PST

Q u o t e:

Lol, I bet you were using the same shot rotation or something similar for all of them too. The fact of the matter is that a quick dummy test doesn't predict how a hunter will do in a long fight and with full raid buffs. You should spend some time browsing the charts people are posting on the hunter forums and on EJ. BM is destroyed, MM is gimped, and Survival is the only viable raid spec (and is clunky and less fun than the other two).

Wrong. The thing that actually affected my tests were the glyphs and gems, and I took that into consideration.

Bananahammoc

< Flawless Victory >

Blackwing Lair

55. Re: @Devs. [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 01/23/2009 11:48:38 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Wrong. The thing that actually affected my tests were the glyphs and gems, and I took that into consideration.

How long were your tests then? When I compared pre-patch BM tests with post-patch, there were huge differences. When I compare BM spec now with MM or SV, BM still comes out behind the others. The thing is, BM looks good at first, when you can blow all of your CDs at once, but the dps declines quickly after that and never catches up.

I still wouldn't use the dummy tests as the argument that BM is viable. Look for a single WWS in a GOOD guild, where people have high end raiding gear and see if you can find a single BM hunter doing decent damage. After seeing hundreds of logs, I don't really think they exist...

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

57. Re: [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 01/23/2009 11:59:31 AM PST

In order to lend any weight to statements such as "You nerfed our other 2 trees to oblivion," you are going to have to provide numbers comparing the 3 specs and they are going to have to be numbers that a reasonable amount of other players believe are reasonable numbers.

Real numbers are much more compelling than what spreadsheets estimate. Multiple bosses are more compelling that combat dummies.

Currently we are seeing a lot of "Someone smart posted some numbers showing Survival was the best dps spec, so I went that spec." We need to see a lot more players trying out different builds and strategies. Declarations that "I too adopted a cookie cutter spec" aren't as compelling when you are taking about potential and effective dps.

Kohko

Magtheridon

58. Re: [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 01/23/2009 12:00:26 PM PST

Q u o t e:
In order to lend any weight to statements such as "You nerfed our other 2 trees to oblivion," you are going to have to provide numbers comparing the 3 specs and they are going to have to be numbers that a reasonable amount of other players believe are reasonable numbers.

Real numbers are much more compelling than what spreadsheets estimate. Multiple bosses are more compelling that combat dummies.

Currently we are seeing a lot of "Someone smart posted some numbers showing Survival was the best dps spec, so I went that spec." We need to see a lot more players trying out different builds and strategies. Declarations that "I too adopted a cookie cutter spec" aren't as compelling when you are taking about potential and effective dps.

Should those numbers be pulled from Live on something like Patchwerk or should they come from a theorycraft spreadsheet? We had two hunters in our regular raiding group, one respec'd Survival and the other went BM, they're equally geared (don't know about skill) and the Survival hunter was in the mid-5ks for Patchwerk while the other struggled to break 4k.

They both did roughly 5k last week.

[ Post edited by Kohko ]

Life is short, and the Art is long; the occasion fleeting; experience fallacious, and judgment difficult.

Levidia

< Nerds at Work >

Executus

59. Re: [Hunter] BM and MM are broken. 01/23/2009 12:02:25 PM PST

Every hunter that is serious about PvE damage migrated to an ES based build.

We have been saying and the testing has been saying for a long time (ever since the changes were announced) that the nerf is too much for BM and the steady shot nerf will push MM below its former competitive level.

Buffing steady shot back up would push survival too high however.

As far as BM goes you can modify that damage but reverting the unnecessary pet talent nerfs like serpents swiftness etc, and if it's still too low modify BM arcane shot damage through the FI talent 5/10/15% etc.

As far as MM and it's PvE damage marked for death numbers could be adjusted as that is a largely PvE based talent.

[ Post edited by Levidia ]

Ig: "one of us got excepted to a major university"
Levidia: "accepted"

~Flare needs to be OFF the GCD~
~Why is kill shot's minimum range 8 yards?~

Forum > CLASS ROLES > DAMAGE DEALING