World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> AJ Repost #2

Qingjao

< Defiance >

Kul Tiras

100. Re: AJ Repost #2 01/22/2009 01:11:19 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Seems to me that to be effective a rating system needs to do one thing and one thing only, prevent unskilled players from obtaining high ranking. Thats it really.

No, and this is part of the problem. You show no desire to care for the unskilled players from your statement. History has just shown us that without them, the arena dies.

Arena has to be accurate and non-exploitable. From 1000 to 2500.

People PvE because its fair.

If you told a priest who just had joined your guild that they could only roll on the healing gear if they out-healed the the #1 priest in your guild who had more gear, they would laugh at you and /gquit. That's essentially what arenas were.

[ Post edited by Qingjao ]

Zamm

< Eternal Evolution >

Quel'dorei

101. Re: AJ Repost #2 01/22/2009 01:13:10 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Seems to me that to be effective a rating system needs to do one thing and one thing only, prevent unskilled players from obtaining high ranking. Thats it really. To be honest the old system accomplished this. Resetting your PR or team rating only got you so far and i sincerely doubt there are any "no skil" teams at the 2150 rating pre-3.08.

I realize that current 3.08 was just bugged and they are attempting to address that but even as the OP said they get it working it is a system that could be abused in such a manner that an unskilled team could in fact rise to the 2k bracket simply by abusing the system. That is deeply flawed in a way the old system was not.

I have yet to hear a believable way in which a team that should be in the 1500-1600 bracket gets to 2100 pre-3.08. I do not believe that resetting one players PR would do this.

That is half of what it has to do, it also has to protect new/poor players from highly experienced ones.

At the moment points resetting is the equivalent of the NY giants all hitting night school, and so being allowed to play on a high school league, as the equals of the school kids.

This is an equally important consideration as you have to make the game fun for everyone to get people to participate. At the moment towards the ends of the season you see resetters coming down and griefing as they are geared and bored.

Ahh I can picture it now, 5000 retadins charging into battle, one moment later,

"HEAL ME FFS!",

"NO YOU HEAL ME NOOB". -sayk

Zamm

< Eternal Evolution >

Quel'dorei

102. Re: AJ Repost #2 01/22/2009 01:19:39 PM PST

Q u o t e:

No, and this is part of the problem. You show no desire to care for the unskilled players from your statement. History has just shown us that without them, the arena dies.

Arena has to be accurate and non-exploitable. From 1000 to 2500.

People PvE because its fair.

If you told a priest who just had joined your guild that they could only roll on the healing gear if they out-healed the the #1 priest in your guild who had more gear, they would laugh at you and /gquit. That's essentially what arenas were.

kind of, but as WoW rewards time spent, and skill shown with shiny new gear, titles and mounts then they can not be for everyone.

Someone with no skill should not be able to go high in the ratings.

There is nothing wrong with unskilled players never getting hateful/deadly gear. To follow your analogy the priest has to have some skill/gear to be taken on the raid in the first place. You would not bench your best healer for a brand new one in greens. The new healer would have to prove themselves through group quests, 5 man raids, 10 man raids, 25 man raids then onto the full fat progression fights.

Ahh I can picture it now, 5000 retadins charging into battle, one moment later,

"HEAL ME FFS!",

"NO YOU HEAL ME NOOB". -sayk

Kinkin

< Sanguine Steel >

Scarlet Crusade

103. Re: AJ Repost #2 01/22/2009 01:26:20 PM PST

Q u o t e:

There is nothing wrong with unskilled players never getting hateful/deadly gear.

I agree with this. It's supposed to be fun.

And it's not fun to come into Arenas with a new team in blues, and get farmed down to 1300 by this week's Glad Team re-rolls.

Torgairon

Kael'thas

104. Re: AJ Repost #2 01/22/2009 01:28:28 PM PST

Q u o t e:

There is nothing wrong with unskilled players never getting hateful/deadly gear.

this statement is the antithesis of what the casuals want for arena, obviously, and I'm beginning to agree with what some others have said and assume that casual representation in arena has dropped off sharply to necessitate such a change mid-season.

I'd rather have a smaller arena pool then a bunch of bads crying to their proverbial mother for gear, but whatever. once the burst at 80 gets touched up a bit, even bad dk's and rets with deadly gear will still be bad players overall.

The mace stun is an e-sport seal of approval.

Kinkin

< Sanguine Steel >

Scarlet Crusade

105. Re: AJ Repost #2 01/22/2009 01:32:34 PM PST

Q u o t e:

I'd rather have a smaller arena pool then a bunch of bads crying to their proverbial mother for gear ...

Whether or not you believe this, the behavior of many highly rated players suggests this isn't what they believe.

They deliberately avoid competition with other highly skilled players, and instead re-roll on a weekly basis to farm 'bads'.

Lovebot

< Insomnía >

Black Dragonflight

106. Re: AJ Repost #2 01/22/2009 01:38:23 PM PST

Q u o t e:

No, and this is part of the problem. You show no desire to care for the unskilled players from your statement. History has just shown us that without them, the arena dies.

Arena has to be accurate and non-exploitable. From 1000 to 2500.

People PvE because its fair.

If you told a priest who just had joined your guild that they could only roll on the healing gear if they out-healed the the #1 priest in your guild who had more gear, they would laugh at you and /gquit. That's essentially what arenas were.

I disagree. I played a warrior and shaman all through out season 3 and 4. My warrior hit level 70 half way through season three. Sure it sucked being under geared but I found a partner and did the best I could every week. Saving up points and buying what pvp gear I could. By the end of season three I was 4/5 Vengeful with s3 weapon and a 2k rated team.

People can do the exact same thing I did and get a full set of pvp gear. Sure they may not get the best possible but that would be because they didn't earn it. In pve however people can receive the best gear even if they are terribad, by simply letting a guild carry them.

But seriously stop bagging arena if all you do is kill the same dungeon / raid boss every week, you're better off getting one of your friends to dress up as barney and throw sticks at him.

Darkoblivion

Scarlet Crusade

107. Re: AJ Repost #2 01/22/2009 01:38:34 PM PST

Q u o t e:

Whether or not you believe this, the behavior of many highly rated players suggests this isn't what they believe.

They deliberately avoid competition with other highly skilled players, and instead re-roll on a weekly basis to farm 'bads'.

k then, thanks for this sidebar generalization kinkin

they sound like the gankers of the arena system to me, tbh...and on my two characters I've done arena with, I've gone through the 1500-1650 area facing two glad teams at the most both times.

this isn't as frequent a problem as all the people who complain about getting rolled once or twice an arena session like to say. if you truly want to go up in rating, you're not playing glad teams every single game, so start winning or gtfo. :/

The mace stun is an e-sport seal of approval.

Dreadplate

< Kremling Krew >

Gorefiend

108. Re: AJ Repost #2 01/22/2009 01:39:02 PM PST

Q u o t e:

this statement is the antithesis of what the casuals want for arena, obviously, and I'm beginning to agree with what some others have said and assume that casual representation in arena has dropped off sharply to necessitate such a change mid-season.

I'd rather have a smaller arena pool then a bunch of bads crying to their proverbial mother for gear, but whatever. once the burst at 80 gets touched up a bit, even bad dk's and rets with deadly gear will still be bad players overall.

You are contradicting yourself, what happens when all the bads quit playing arena all together? you only get to play against gladiators, then what? Why are gladiator players making new teams every day to play against 1500 rated competition then?

Zamm

< Eternal Evolution >

Quel'dorei

109. Re: AJ Repost #2 01/22/2009 01:39:53 PM PST

Q u o t e:

this statement is the antithesis of what the casuals want for arena, obviously, and I'm beginning to agree with what some others have said and assume that casual representation in arena has dropped off sharply to necessitate such a change mid-season.

I'd rather have a smaller arena pool then a bunch of bads crying to their proverbial mother for gear, but whatever. once the burst at 80 gets touched up a bit, even bad dk's and rets with deadly gear will still be bad players overall.

i am not so sure, I am a fairly casual arena player, and what I want is attainable goals. S1-3 with charity gear was pointless. You just did your 10 games each week and forgot about the shoulders. There was no real fun in it for casuals. We farmed arena points.

With rating on the gear there is a challenge, you have attainable goals. You struggle to pull yourselves up to the gloves, then the legs and so on, each piece of gear is an achievment. I am probably never going to see the deadly 5 piece set, but there is an excitement in being at 1610 rating, and knowing you need to win to get the gloves.

The only thing I would say is that possibly the ratings are slightly too high, drop the gloves to 1550 and then all the hateful in line with that and there is not such a big gap to strive for. It is a more realistic progresion. With simple steps up the gear ladder, at the moment it is a huge first leap, and then simple steps.

But as I said there has to be some form of persistent rating introduced to protect the new players from being griefed.

Being bad, and dropping to the right rating is one thing, being new and learning the ropes upto 1550/1600s and then facing a 1500 reroll team of 5/5 deadly and losing a ton of points is terrible. That will put people off playing arena more than anything else.

People do not mind losing to their peers (much), losing to a resetting team that you armory and find in 5/5 deadly will make people give up in disgust.

Ahh I can picture it now, 5000 retadins charging into battle, one moment later,

"HEAL ME FFS!",

"NO YOU HEAL ME NOOB". -sayk

Aekeem

< Twilight >

Kael'thas

110. Re: AJ Repost #2 01/22/2009 01:40:29 PM PST

weren't you not playing for almost all of s3 and s4 deceptia?(this is the time period where people experienced this due to the introduction of personal rating)

Scolderick

< Idoneus >

Silvermoon

111. Re: AJ Repost #2 01/22/2009 01:40:53 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Thanks tard, If (Keyword IF) I wanted to read this mouth breathing crap, I would be on the AJ site.
Thanks for wasting bandwidth.

You do raelize that this is the PVP forums? Arena is part of PvP

Darkoblivion

Scarlet Crusade

112. Re: AJ Repost #2 01/22/2009 01:52:40 PM PST

Q u o t e:
what happens when all the bads quit playing arena all together?

except you've been crying on the forums so much you seem to have assumed you speak for every casual arena player in wow, which simply isn't true. even were blizzard to retake this whole spin on arenas and we went back to before 3.08, casuals will still play 10 games a week, either because they sincerely want to try and get better or they want the minimal point gain per week and don't care how slowly they get savage glad gear.

I don't get this line of thought anyway, by all that is evidenced thus far they're getting what they've (apparently, according to you forum champions of the cause) wanted.

Q u o t e:
weren't you not playing for almost all of s3 and s4 deceptia?(this is the time period where people experienced this due to the introduction of personal rating)

sup brah dis is mah pally, I played on him in S4 and was playing the rogue in S3, xferred to medivh shortly before S3 ended and quit playing it to go spam heals for rating.

The mace stun is an e-sport seal of approval.

Humbug

Terenas

113. Re: AJ Repost #2 01/22/2009 02:16:13 PM PST

What pisses me off is that my 1750 rating is now essentially pointless. No, I've never hit 2k, but my 2v2 has slowly but surely gotten better over the last 3 seasons (ended in the 1600s in S2, 1776 in S3, ~1850 in S4). We fully expected to be able to break 1900 this season, which, honestly, is good enough for us. We don't play 50 games per week and we're not going to switch to the OP class-combo-flavor of the week to improve our rating.

Arena in seasons 2, 3, and 4 was fun. Yeah, in S3/S4 we were pissed off by druid/warrior teams that we hardly ever beat (although the game we won to finally crack 1800 was against druid/warrior). But that's life. There are some class combos that are going to be harder for certain teams.

Now comes season 5. DPS is crazy insane high, my rogue partner included. We still win a good fraction of the time, when my partner blows up the other side. We still lose some of the time. But the fun is gone. Getting killed in 10 seconds isn't fun. Winning in 10 seconds isn't fun. Especially if you're a healer, because it means that you didn't get a chance to do much.

The thing is, when games end in 5 or 10 seconds, no one wants to play. Casuals evaporate because they don't have the experience to react quickly. You can't think, you have to KNOW what to do. Of course, that was always the case in the 1800s+. The problem is that now it's happening in the 1500s, too. It doesn't take a good player to burst down a bad player quickly any more. Now, BAD players can kill BAD players quickly too.

And, yes, they are BAD. We've played a lot of teams in the 1700s this season that simply don't belong there. Teams that don't bother to use CC. Players that don't have PvP trinkets. Players who LOS their healers.

There's something wrong here. Changing the ratings isn't going to fix it.

Trunhin

< Meow >

Cenarius

114. Re: AJ Repost #2 01/22/2009 02:18:05 PM PST

Q u o t e:

i wonder how many people that post on arenajunkies abused the resetting exploit to get to 2k.

i abused it all the way to 2540, WHATS UP WITH THAT?

Kalgan

Blizzard Poster

115. Re: AJ Repost #2 01/22/2009 02:20:06 PM PST

Although I can't go into great detail at the moment, I'd like to make a few comments.

- The team/personal ratings and the hidden ratings are related to each other. Your team/personal ratings essentially drift toward your hidden rating, so if you deliberately lower your hidden rating and remake a team, your team/personal ratings simply won't get up to high ratings until your hidden rating does. His exploit as proposed simply doesn't work because his assumptions about the relationship between the visible and hidden rating are incorrect.

- Yes, a group of good players could still deliberately stomp nubs by intentionally losing lots of games to lower their hidden rating. A rating system won't stop that, but it still solves most cases of high rated players beating up on lower rated players. First, many of the cases where high rated players were being matched against low rated players wasn't because the high rated players were deliberately trying to stomp people, it was often accidental as high rated players had normal/natural reasons to change teams on occasion (helping friends, trying out new players, new comps, new strategies, etc). Second, it takes far more effort to deliberately deflate your rating down to low levels than it did to simply create a new team.

- Something that many of you have mentioned is that the rating adjustments are now not always "zero sum". However, a rating system doesn't need to be zero sum in order to prevent inflation. The new system uses a bayesian prior distribution in order to prevent inflation, which in simpler terms means there's math that enforces that players won't have ratings outside of some range (when working without bugs, of course). For the population size we have for arenas, this means we should see ratings range from around 600 to 2400 (again, assuming no bugs).

- There were two bugs with the system that we're in the process of fixing before we reactivate arenas (should be soon) that were causing serious problems (and distorting everyone's perspective on the system). One was in the functionality that seeded everyone's hidden rating based on their pre-3.0.8 patch performance, causing players to "drift" toward wildly inaccurate ratings, the other being in the way that personal ratings were adjusted.

[ Post edited by Kalgan ]

Xmfade

< Bums With Rum >

Laughing Skull

116. Re: AJ Repost #2 01/22/2009 02:21:57 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Although I can't go into great detail at the moment, I'd like to make a few comments.

- The team/personal ratings and the hidden ratings are related to each other. Your team/personal ratings essentially drift toward your hidden rating, so if you deliberately lower your hidden rating and remake a team, your team/personal ratings simply won't get up to high ratings until your hidden rating does. His exploit as proposed simply doesn't work because his assumptions about the relationship between the visible and hidden rating are incorrect.

- Yes, a group of good players could still deliberately stomp nubs by intentionally losing lots of games to lower their hidden rating. A rating system won't stop that, but it still solves most cases of high rated players beating up on lower rated players. First, many of the cases where high rated players were being matched against low rated players wasn't because the high rated players were deliberately trying to stomp people, it was often accidental as high rated players had normal/natural reasons to change teams on occasion (helping friends, trying out new players, new comps, new strategies, etc). Second, it takes far more effort to deliberately deflate your rating down to low levels than it did to simply create a new team.

- Something that many of you have mentioned is that the rating adjustments are now not always "zero sum". However, a rating system doesn't need to be zero sum in order to prevent inflation. The new system uses a bayesian prior distribution in order to prevent inflation, which in simpler terms means there's math that enforces that players won't have ratings outside of some range (when working without bugs, of course). For the population size we have for arenas, this means we should see ratings range from around 600 to 2400 (again, assuming no bugs).

- There were two bugs with the system that we're in the process of fixing before we reactivate arenas (should be soon) that were causing serious problems (and distorting everyone's perspective on the system). One was in the functionality that seeded everyone's hi

It's about god damn time we got a clear explanation in blue text.

6e 65 72 66 20 72 6f 67 75 65 73

Asway

< New Content >

Doomhammer

117. Re: AJ Repost #2 01/22/2009 02:23:08 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Although I can't go into great detail at the moment, I'd like to make a few comments.

- The team/personal ratings and the hidden ratings are related to each other. Your team/personal ratings essentially drift toward your hidden rating, so if you deliberately lower your hidden rating and remake a team, your team/personal ratings simply won't get up to high ratings until your hidden rating does. His exploit as proposed simply doesn't work because his assumptions about the relationship between the visible and hidden rating are incorrect.

- Yes, a group of good players could still deliberately stomp nubs by intentionally losing lots of games to lower their hidden rating. A rating system won't stop that, but it still solves most cases of high rated players beating up on lower rated players. First, many of the cases where high rated players were being matched against low rated players wasn't because the high rated players were deliberately trying to stomp people, it was often accidental as high rated players had normal/natural reasons to change teams on occasion (helping friends, trying out new players, new comps, new strategies, etc). Second, it takes far more effort to deliberately deflate your rating down to low levels than it did to simply create a new team.

- Something that many of you have mentioned is that the rating adjustments are now not always "zero sum". However, a rating system doesn't need to be zero sum in order to prevent inflation. The new system uses a bayesian prior distribution in order to prevent inflation, which in simpler terms means there's math that enforces that players won't have ratings outside of some range (when working without bugs, of course). For the population size we have for arenas, this means we should see ratings range from around 600 to 2400 (again, assuming no bugs).

- There were two bugs with the system that we're in the process of fixing before we reactivate arenas (should be soon) that were causing serious problems (and distorting everyone's perspective on the system). One was in the functionality that seeded everyone's hi

:O hi2u

Scrototems

< Umbral Sect >

Gorgonnash

118. Re: AJ Repost #2 01/22/2009 02:24:32 PM PST

Do any of you think ratings really matter with the current state of PvP?

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